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  #101  
Old 08-10-2021, 02:29 PM
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Interestingly in Belgium there hasn't been a Queen Regent yet, it's interesting to see what will happen when Princess Elisabeth is queen.
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  #102  
Old 08-10-2021, 02:34 PM
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Also Queen Anne's husband Prince George of Denmark as far as I'm aware was never made a Prince of the United Kingdom but was made Duke of Cumberland by William III in 1689.


HRH Prince George of Denmark and Norway, Duke of Cumberland.
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  #103  
Old 08-10-2021, 02:40 PM
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Some monarchical constitutions use the word "King" to refer to the Head of State probably because they were originally written at a time when only men could succeed to the throne. That is definitely the case for example in Belgium, Denmark and Norway.

Conversely, some Commonwealth realm constitutions like Canada's Constitution Act 1867 or the Commonwealth of Australia Constitution Act of 1900, which were passed during Queen Victoria's reign, use only the term "Queen" to refer to the monarch, with the remark, however, as stated in the Australian Constitution Act that: "The provisions of this Act referring to the Queen shall extend to Her Majesty's heirs and successors in the sovereignty of the United Kingdom".

More recent constitutional texts avoid those traps by using a different wording. For example, as I mentioned in another thread, the Swedish constitution now normally refers to the monarch simply as "the Head of State" or, alternatively, "the King or Queen who occupies the throne", or "the King or Queen who is the Head of State". Likewise, the New Zealand Constitution Act of 1986 uses the neutral term "the Sovereign" to refer to the King or Queen who occupies the throne.

In any case, although I understand the argument put forward by some Dutch or Danish posters, I don't think it is reasonable to assume that Queen Beatrix or Queen Margrethe II are titled Queen, but are constitutionally the King of the Netherlands or of Denmark by virtue of the respective constitutions of those countries using only the term King to refer to the monarch. In fact, both Margrethe and Beatrix discharge/discharged the powers pertaining to their offices as laid down in the constitution using "Queen" in the preamble of royal decrees, legislative bills or proclamations, which seems to contradict that such powers could be exercised by a King only.
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  #104  
Old 08-10-2021, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Blog Real View Post
Interestingly in Belgium there hasn't been a Queen Regent yet, it's interesting to see what will happen when Princess Elisabeth is queen.
Queen Regent or Queen Regnant?

I don't think believe Belgium has had either.
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  #105  
Old 08-10-2021, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by An Ard Ri View Post
Queen Regent or Queen Regnant?

I don't think believe Belgium has had either.
Yes Queen Regnant. I confused.
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  #106  
Old 08-11-2021, 03:42 AM
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Will Princess Elisabeth use a Roman numeral when she is the Queen Regnant and be Queen Elisabeth I of the Belgians so she is not confused with the spouse of King Albert I, Queen Elisabeth of the Belgians?
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  #107  
Old 08-11-2021, 04:23 AM
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Originally Posted by CyrilVladisla View Post
Will Princess Elisabeth use a Roman numeral when she is the Queen Regnant and be Queen Elisabeth I of the Belgians so she is not confused with the spouse of King Albert I, Queen Elisabeth of the Belgians?
Normally there wouldn't be numeral if there isn't another namesake monarch right? (Juan Carlos I is the only exception I think.) Christina of Sweden had never used a numeral to differentiate herself from her grandmother Queen Christina of Sweden, and same for Elizabeth I who are called "the first" later because there is "the second" but not because she had a queen (consort) grandmother who also named Elizabeth. No reason for her to add a numeral (IMO it would be quite embarrassing if you call yourself "the first" but there actually isn't "the second"......)
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  #108  
Old 08-11-2021, 10:39 AM
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The problem is that they are complicating an issue that is simpler than you think.

Currently, the husband of a Queen is a Prince Consort.
A King's wife is the Queen Consort.
Gender-equal titulature and treatment would simplify matters, not complicate them. When a monarchy has a tradition of male sovereigns and female consorts, and female sovereigns and/or male consorts are treated unequally, then solutions must be worked out over the first female sovereign/male consort, since the traditions set by male sovereigns and female consorts have been excluded as usable precedents.

Solutions may even need to be reworked for the next female sovereign and male consort, since the previous case-by-case solutions may be inappropriate for subsequent couples.

Absent the simplicity which following the precedents set for female consorts would achieve, the husband of Queen Beatrix of the Netherlands was styled as Prince Claus of the Netherlands, the husband of Queen Elizabeth II of Britain was styled as The Duke of Edinburgh, and the husband of Queen Margrethe II of Denmark changed from The Prince to The Prince Consort to Prince Henrik, resulting in four separate styles applied to three male consorts.


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As for same-sex couples, I think the husband of a King should have the title of Prince Consort.
A Queen's wife would be Princess Consort so as not to be confused with the Queen.

This issue is simple to resolve.
Gender equality would also simplify, not complicate, the unprecedented situation of a same-gender royal consort. When a queen's husband is treated unequally to a king's wife, arguments could be made for either option: treating a queen's wife in the same fashion as a king's wife (using the precedent set by previous female consorts), or treating a queen's wife in the same fashion as a queen's husband (using the precedent set by previous consorts of queens regnant). When a queen's husband is treated equally to a king's wife, the answer will be simple.
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  #109  
Old 08-12-2021, 09:18 AM
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And to be honest nothing about royalty is actually based on fairness.
When it comes to for instance accusations against royals of racist remarks or poor treatment of employees, I see a general opinion among royal watchers (even the ones who are extremely traditional) that if the accusations prove to be true then people should absolutely not stand for it. And where royal families have repealed house laws discriminating against commoner consorts, those rule changes are cheered by most of the royal watching community. There are inherently unfair aspects of hereditary monarchy, and perhaps even in elective monarchy, but it is also plain that unfairness is not always unproblematic in monarchies, however traditional.


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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
The perception that King is a "higher title" than Queen only seems to emerge in discussions of titles of consorts, and never elsewhere.

Nowhere in the many discussions I have read on royal websites and social media have I ever heard admirers of Queen Elizabeth II of the UK or Queen Margrethe II of Denmark bemoan that they were given "lower titles" than their fathers and other male monarchs. [...]
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Because it really only matters when discussing matters of status between Queen's regnant and their husbands. At all other times its taken for granted that a female monarch will be a Queen Regnant and there's no real appetite among royal watchers (many of whom do value tradition in titles and other things to do with royalty) that PC Victoria for instance becomes King Victoria.
Interesting. So the general perception among royal watchers is that the female sovereigns of European kingdoms do bear lower titles than their male counterparts, but it is never discussed because nobody has objections to it? I am not sure if I view general opinion in the same way (and personally, though I value tradition in titles, if I perceived Queen to be a lower title than King then I would object to the inferior treatment of female monarchs), but I haven't carried out a survey of royal watchers, and it is an interesting thought.


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I'm personally not in favour of a male consort being named King in the interests of "fairness" simply because "here come the King and Queen" is so ingrained into the English language as the King being the most important one, although I don't know about other languages.
I assume you are a native and/or fluent English speaker, and so am I, but for me "here come the Queen and King" would cause the perception of the Queen being the more important spouse while "here come the King and Queen" would cause the perception of the King being the more important spouse.
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  #110  
Old 08-12-2021, 09:24 AM
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I assume you are a native and/or fluent English speaker, and so am I, but for me "here come the Queen and King" would cause the perception of the Queen being the more important spouse while "here come the King and Queen" would cause the perception of the King being the more important spouse.
I agree. Personally the phrase "the Queen and King" would signal to me in any of the six languages I either speak or understand that it was the queen who had the higher position. It's all a matter of habit, really. If a monarchy would start using the title of king for the male spouse of a queen people would quickly get used to it and stop finding it strange. Foreign governments would use it for matters of diplomatic protocol and although I'm sure that foreign reporters would initially mess it up (yes, I'm looking at you English language press who can't stop using Kate Middleton) they are neither important nor would affect the narrative in the royal couple's home country.
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  #111  
Old 08-12-2021, 09:40 AM
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I'm still relatively new to this site, so I'm not sure if it's been discuss yet, but if a royal married someone of the same sex, what would their titles be?
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  #112  
Old 08-12-2021, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by HenRach Dominion View Post
I'm still relatively new to this site, so I'm not sure if it's been discuss yet, but if a royal married someone of the same sex, what would their titles be?
To my knowledge the question has not been discussed publicly by any of the royal families in countries where same-sex marriage has been officially recognized, thus we can only speculate about future decisions.

Under the present legislation, a same-sex spouse would not automatically take a royal title in any of those countries, with the possible exceptions of a spouse of the Spanish heir and an approved wife of a Luxembourgian princess (that would be the case under my interpretations of the royal decree in Spain and the house law in Luxembourg, but the laws were promulgated before the legalization of same-sex marriage in the respective countries). Note that in most of those countries, that is also the case for male spouses of female royals.


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I agree. Personally the phrase "the Queen and King" would signal to me in any of the six languages I either speak or understand that it was the queen who had the higher position. It's all a matter of habit, really. If a monarchy would start using the title of king for the male spouse of a queen people would quickly get used to it and stop finding it strange. Foreign governments would use it for matters of diplomatic protocol and although I'm sure that foreign reporters would initially mess it up (yes, I'm looking at you English language press who can't stop using Kate Middleton) they are neither important nor would affect the narrative in the royal couple's home country.
Agreed. From time to time a foreign reporter refers to Crown Princess Mary of Denmark as Princess Mary and occasionally even to Prince Daniel of Sweden as Crown Prince Daniel. In either case it hasn't harmed the functioning of the monarchy in Denmark or Sweden.
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  #113  
Old 08-15-2021, 12:46 AM
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Originally Posted by W.Y.CII View Post
Christina of Sweden had never used a numeral to differentiate herself from her grandmother Queen Christina of Sweden
It would have been strange for Queen Kristina to use a numeral to differentiate herself from her grandmother since the latter was a queen consort and not a queen regnant. Her cousin King Karl X's granddaughter Queen (regnant) Ulrika Eleonora is sometimes spoken of as "the younger" to differentiate her from her mother Queen (consort) Ulrika Eleonora "the elder", but these are modern and unofficial designations.
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  #114  
Old 08-15-2021, 02:05 AM
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It would have been strange for Queen Kristina to use a numeral to differentiate herself from her grandmother since the latter was a queen consort and not a queen regnant. Her cousin King Karl X's granddaughter Queen (regnant) Ulrika Eleonora is sometimes spoken of as "the younger" to differentiate her from her mother Queen (consort) Ulrika Eleonora "the elder", but these are modern and unofficial designations.
Yes, that's exactly why I said it's unnecessary for Elisabeth to use "Elisabeth I" as the queen regnant in order to differentiate herself from her great-great-grandmother Elisabeth who was queen consort.
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  #115  
Old 09-08-2021, 11:19 AM
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Under the reforms suggested by the Japanese government in 2005, the husband of a female emperor or member of the imperial family was to use the same form of address as the wife of a male emperor or member of the imperial family. These forms of address are translated into English as Majesty in the case of an emperor's (empress's) consort and Imperial Highness in the case of the consort of a member of the Imperial Family.

Because the titles applied to imperial wives are gender specific, new titles were to be established for imperial husbands.

http://japan.kantei.go.jp/policy/koshitsu/051124_e.pdf


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(ii) The Consort’s Title

Under the current system, the consort of a (male) Emperor is titled Kōgō (皇后, Empress), and the widow of a (male) Emperor is titled Taikōtaigō (太皇太后, Grand Empress Dowager), or Kōtaigō (皇太后, Empress Dowager). The consorts of a Shinnō and of an Ō are titled respectively Shinnō-hi (親王妃) and Ō-hi (王妃). With the informed advice of learned individuals possessing an expert knowledge of the subject, appropriate titles will likewise need to be established for the consorts of female Emperors, Naishinnō, and Joō.

As for the titles Tennō (天皇, Emperor), Kōtaishi (皇太子, the Crown Prince if the child of the Emperor), and Kōtaison (皇太孫, the Crown Prince if the grandchild of the Emperor), these do not apply specifically to males: it is a matter of historical fact that women too have become Emperors and Kōtaishi. It would therefore be appropriate to use these same titles of women as well.

(iii) Honorific Forms of Address and Other Terminology

Under the current system, the Empress, the Grand Empress Dowager, and the Empress Dowager are, like the Emperor, addressed as Heika (陛下), or “Your Majesty”; other members of the Imperial Family are addressed as Denka (殿下), or “Your Highness.” As for place of burial, that of the Empress, the Grand Empress Dowager, or the Empress Dowager is, like that of the Emperor, termed a Ryō (陵), or Mausoleum; that of any other member of the Imperial Family is termed a Bo (墓), or Tomb. In the same fashion, similar terminology should be used with respect to the consort or widower of a female Emperor as with respect to the Emperor herself.

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As far as I know the spouse of Charlotte, Grand Duchess of Luxembourg was also styled Prince Consort and was never made a Grand Duke of Luxembourg?
The husband of Grand Duchess Charlotte was styled His Royal Highness the Prince of Luxembourg, even after her abdication.

By the new 2012 house law, the husband of the reigning Grand Duchess will hold "the predicate Royal Highness and the title Prince of Luxembourg, Prince Consort". I am not sure if that suggests he will use Prince of Luxembourg or Prince Consort.


Answered the discussion of regnal ordinals here.
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