Royals Visiting The Pope

[amedea]

At least, they should. I remember the terrible gaffe of Marina going to a Mass in Vatican with white veil some years ago! She was of course very criticized.

 

[espejor]

I did not know that Benedicto had no coronation. Josephine Charlotte died in january 2005 , so it was Maria Teresa and Henri for Luxemburg..
Thanks for the magazine , it was the only occasion I saw my Queen Fabiola wearing a white veal on the spanish way.

When Fabiola visited John XXIII, she wore a tiara (do you know what tiara is?)!

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I guess that after the visit she suffered an abort

I love the traditional Spanish "peineta"! The woman look wonderful with it!:

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Thanks a lot for all these pictures , now we know better , sad that Queen Paola was not there.

I have other doubt: Why did Paola not wear white dress in the beatification of the last Emperor of Austria-Hungary (I guess that is was in 2004-2005, before the death of John Paul II)?

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She was Queen and she has the privilege.

So it is confirmed? Savoy princesses had the privilege du blanc?

I have read that originally, the "privilege du blanc" was for the Savoy Princesses, and afterward it was spread for all the Catholic Majesties.

But I have a "problem".

Well, we have seen photos of Maria Jose wearing white dress in the Vatican. For example, for the coronation of Pius XII she wore white dress (very similar look with the look of her during his wedding day, because she wore the same tiara and a very similar dress).

But I have seen in "Jewelery of Savoy" (by Stefano Papi and Maria Gabriella of Savoy), Princess Maria Jose in 1930 visiting the Pope wearing black dress! I will try to scan the photo this afternoon because I will go mad!

In this video we can see Maria Jose in the Coronation of Pius XII:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSaEF4UwfmY

Regards!

 

[maria-olivia]

Espejor, I am happy to see this old pictures again.
Queen Fabiola was wearing the Queen's tiara because they annonced to the Pope that the Queen was pregnant . It was the Pope who annonced the first Queen's pregnancy , which has been critized by the Belgian State.
Alas a few days after she has a miscariage(?) . And she had 4 more but they remain the most fantastic couple I know.
About the last beatification of Jean Paul II , the last King of Austria , Charles Ier, Fabiola was of course in white but next to her is is not Queen Paola but hers daughter Princess Astrid, who was of course in black

You showed a picture of Queen Elisabeth in black at the Vatican.
I think that they are in white when they are officially received by the Pope.
Let wait until October 11th , the King and the Queen will go to vatican for the beatification or more of Father Damien , we will see which collar Paola is wearing.
I was very happy to have a nive conversation with you and Amadeo about this thread, all the best

 

[amedea]

maria-olivia it is the same for me, I have become passionate of this thread!
Is it possible that queen Elisabeth and Maria Josè were wearing black in those occasions because they were in a mourning period?
And I think it is probable that queen Paola was in black at Pope's funeral, bacause she considered that the right color for a funaral was black. Is there a rule for such occasions?
However on 1st April 2006 Albert, Paola, Philippe, Mathilde, Lorenz and Astrid were received by the Pope. I haven't found a better photo http://eucharistiemisericor.free.fr/images/albert_paola.jpg
I found a photo that shows queen Elisabeth receiving Pope John Paul II and that confirms that in such cases black in not required http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2217/1550119017_7ba5b8e80f.jpg
Finally a pic of Rania NOT following the protocol (the fact that the visit was in Castel Gandolfo and not in Vatican should not be relevant, isn't it?) and one in which she follows it.
http://www.geocities.com/jordanroyals/misc/pope/castelgandolfo2.jpg
http://www.ennaharonline.com/en/thumbnail.php?file=Pope_in_Jordan_547896420.jpg&size=article_medium

 

[maria-olivia]

Amedea, I remember quite well this first visit of the belgian royal family, Prince laurent and Princess Claire did not assist and both stayed home.. I wonder what the King said to the Pope..
Soon after the Grand Ducal royals visited the Pope and their 5 children were there.
There is a great picture about Queen Elisabeth II visiting officialy Pope ?? She was in black with tiara , veil and sash.

 

[espejor]

Amedea, I remember quite well this first visit of the belgian royal family, Prince laurent and Princess Claire did not assist and both stayed home.. I wonder what the King said to the Pope..
Soon after the Grand Ducal royals visited the Pope and their 5 children were there.
There is a great picture about Queen Elisabeth II visiting officialy Pope ?? She was in black with tiara , veil and sash.

With John XXIII and John Paul II:

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I have to put up the photos of Maria Jose wearing black dress in her visit to the Pope!

King Alfonso XIII and Queen Victoria Eugenia (of Spain) were with the Pope in 1923. I would like to see Victoria Eugenia wearing white dress (I have read that the Pope didn't allow Victoria Eugenia to go to the Vatican wearing white dress, but King Alfonso XIII convinced him!).

And I have read too that the first queen of Spain that was allow to go in white to the Vatican was Maria Luisa of Parma, the wife of Carlos IV (a king of the end of XVIIIth century.

Regards!

 

[maria-olivia]

You have pictures I never saw which make the thead very interesting !

 

[espejor]

Well amedea, I guess that I have the answer for the question of the black dress of Maria Jose: She wasn't a Savoy Princess. She was already a Belgian Princess.

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(Sorry for the above photo, but I photographed it because my scanner is broken ) (Maria Jose is on the left of the photo)

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But I don't know why didn't Queen Elisabeth of Belgium wear white dress...

Another photo of the Italian Royal Family during the Coronation of Pius XII. Maria Jose doesn't appear in this photo, but this day she wore white dress:

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Espejor, I am happy to see this old pictures again.
Queen Fabiola was wearing the Queen's tiara because they annonced to the Pope that the Queen was pregnant . It was the Pope who annonced the first Queen's pregnancy , which has been critized by the Belgian State.
Alas a few days after she has a miscariage(?) . And she had 4 more but they remain the most fantastic couple I know.
About the last beatification of Jean Paul II , the last King of Austria , Charles Ier, Fabiola was of course in white but next to her is is not Queen Paola but hers daughter Princess Astrid, who was of course in black

The story of Fabiola is very sad, but very nice too =) Baudouin loved her a lot and she loved (and loves) Baudouin a lot too!

Astrid is very similar to her mother!

PD: I have found a newspaper of the visit of Alfonso XIII and Victoria Eugenia to the Pope in 1923....

Regards!

 

[maria-olivia]

On the first picture Queen Elisabeth , Crown Princess Astrid and Princess Marie-José of the Belgians are all in black. I dont't know for wich event it was altough the picture is known here in Belgium because we have so less pictures about our beloved young Queen Astrid, perhaps it was not an official visit to the Pope himself.
The picture of Marie José not officially engaged at that moment, she wears a wonderful small tiara she inherited from her grand-mother , the Countess of Flanders now sadly sold by Marie Gabriella.
The picture with the majestuos Queen of Italy in white was taken at the same event ?
Who is the men with his one hidden eye , her husband the King ??
Looking again at this pictures they are taken from your same book (is it the one about the savoie jewelry ?) , then why Elisabeth in black and Margarita in wight. Perhaps the Queen of Italy 's own will....
How do you do your quotes in your RF's thread ?? I never tried , everybody is doing that ..

 

[espejor]

The photo of Maria Jose and the Belgian Royal Family was taken 7 January of 1930. I don't so much the little crown/tiara that Maria Jose wore this day, I don't like pearls (in the book about Savoy's jewels, I read that some pearls of this tiara were fake).

The picture of Queen Helena wearing white dress was taken in the Coronation of Pius XII (1939).

I don't know who is the men, I'm very curious to know who is him! I guess that he isn't the King Victor Manuel III, because V.E. III had two eyes

Yes, the photos are from "Jewelery of the House of Savoy". A very nice book! It's lovely, the photos are awesome and the jewels too!

A photo of the visit of the King and Queen of Spain to the Vatican in 1977: Imageshack - 3721173

Regards!

 

[amedea]

The man with hidden eye appears in many photos and videos of vatican ceremonies (even in the video posted above of the coronation of Pius XII, at 2.08 minute, at the beginning of the papal cortege) and IMO he is a kind of chamberlain of the Papal Court and so he probably is a member of a roman princely family. In the picture above where he is near queen Elena, one can see that the King is on the other side of the queen. The same pic, however, was not taken at the coronation of Pius XII but, I think, at the visit from the king in that same year 1939. At the coronation, as shown in the above video and said in Italian, Umberto and Maria Josè represented the king and the queen who were not present.

 

[maria-olivia]

royals visiting the Pope

So You mean King Albert Ier and Queen Elisabeth were represented at the coronation by their daughter , which seems normal and that the picture where the Queen and Princesses were in black was in 1939..King Albert Ier died in 1934 and Queen Astrid in 1935. This picture was taken around 1930 before Marie-José's engagement..

 

[amedea]

So You mean King Albert Ier and Queen Elisabeth were represented at the coronation by their daughter , which seems normal and that the picture where the Queen and Princesses were in black was in 1939..King Albert Ier died in 1934 and Queen Astrid in 1935. This picture was taken around 1930 before Marie-José's engagement..

No I didn't mean that: I meant that in 1939 at the coronation ceremony the king and queen of ITALY were represented by their son and daughter-in-law.
I found out who the man with hidden eye was: the Grand Master of the Sacred Apostolic Hospice, prince Alessandro Ruspoli, 7th prince of Cerveteri.

 

[maria-olivia]

The Princes Ruspoli are they still now involved in the Sacred Aspotoloc Hospice ? Does this still exist ?

 

[amedea]

The Princes Ruspoli are they still now involved in the Sacred Aspotoloc Hospice ? Does this still exist ?

No, pope Paul VI abolished tha Papal Household and any links that the Vatican had with the Roman Aristocracy in 1968, causing much discontent between the Roman Aristocracy. If the Ruspolis use this title now it is just a way of recalling their moral heritage, but the title hasn't legal value. Something similar to the use of the titles of the kingdom of Italy in the nowadays Republic of Italy.
I can also note that the divorces of princes Ruspoli after 1968 could have been a sufficient pretext for the Pope to give the fuction to another family. But we can also say that if the fuction continued to be effective Princes Ruspoli could decide to not incur in such divorces.
After 1968 2 posts in the new "Papal Family" remained as hereditary posts for 2 aristocratic families: they are the posts of Princes Assistant to the Pontifical Throne, held by Prince Colonna of Paliano (nowadays is Prince Marcantonio) and Prince Torlonia of Fucino, Canino, Musignano (nowadays Prince Alessandro). This people is very much unknown to people and media, as demonstate the fact that no one talked about the death in June of Prince Alessandro Torlonia's wife, Princess Anna Maria, born del Drago.

 

[maria-olivia]

Esjeper , Keep and never loan your book about the jewelry of the house of Savoy, because it is sold out..
I am looking forward October 11th when the King and the Queen of the Belgians will be at the Vatican of Father Damien..we will see if Paola will be in white or black ?
Kind regards to Amedea too and thanks for all your pictures and informations..
Maria-Olivia

 

[queenofthelight]

Amedea, you have know so much information!
Thank you for sharing it with us.
As for me, I always like to see Royal woman, wearing in the special long black dress.
I clearly remember seeing Princess Grace and Prince Diana with the Pop.

 

[Little_star]

Finally a pic of Rania NOT following the protocol (the fact that the visit was in Castel Gandolfo and not in Vatican should not be relevant, isn't it?) and one in which she follows it.
http://www.geocities.com/jordanroyals/misc/pope/castelgandolfo2.jpg
http://www.ennaharonline.com/en/thumbnail.php?file=Pope_in_Jordan_547896420.jpg&size=article_medium

There is no protocol, from what I understand, regarding dress when visiting the Pope at Castel Gandolfo. Therefore Rania didn't break protocol.

 

[medea36912]

Im just a tad bit confused still on the protocol. For the first visit to the pope or a new pope a prince or princess is suppose to dress up very nicely, right? If it is a princesses first time visiting the pope is she automatically suppose to wear a crown or is that only for reigning royalty? what about regular princesses and crown princesses? is there protocol for that as well? im sorry if my questions are already answered the more I read about it the more it confused me.

 

[An Ard Ri]

Esjeper , Keep and never loan your book about the jewelry of the house of Savoy, because it is sold out..
I am looking forward October 11th when the King and the Queen of the Belgians will be at the Vatican of Father Damien..we will see if Paola will be in white or black ?
Kind regards to Amedea too and thanks for all your pictures and informations..
Maria-Olivia

2 more days to go

 

[amedea]

so the day came and queen Paola was in WHITE!
deredactie.be: Koningspaar ontvangen door paus
quite funny that she is caught by cameras while checking that the veil is ok before entering the Pope's audience room.

 

[MARG]

Queen Elisabeth visiting the Pope in 1961 (from Corbis). I am kind of surprised by this outfit , the dress and the veil seems a little " overdramatic" on her - not that they are bad (I think they are wonderful), they just don't seem very QEII to me

She is a Head of State Officially visiting another Head of State, thus her black veil was attached by the Kokoshnik Tiara teamed with long the appropriate long dress and Prince Philipp is in full Military Dress.

Sort of the Anglican version of this: Queen Sofia Of Spain Pictures - Pope Benedict XVI Holds First Mass In Saint Peter's Square - Zimbio

 

[Kotroman]

Privilege to wear white

I know that only the Queen of Spain, the Queen of the Belgians, Queen Fabiola of Belgium, Italian princesses and the Grand Duchess of Luxembourg are allowed to wear white in Vatican City. All others must wear black. Can you post photographs of them using their privilege?

Here is one of the Queen of Spain.http://www.life.com/image/54750733
In this one, the Grand Duchess of Luxembourg exercises her right.http://www.life.com/image/57555374
The Queen of Spain and the Grand Duchess of Luxembourg together.http://www.zimbio.com/pictures/RSaa...+Saint+Peter/BqPLymCKxTa/Queen+Sofia+Of+Spain
And this one features the Queen of the Belgians wearing white in Vatican.http://www.life.com/image/91728477
Finally, Queen Fabiola of Belgium wearing white in Vatican.http://www.life.com/image/51386544

Have they ever chosen to wear black? Why haven't the Princes of Monaco and Liechtenstein been granted the honour of Catholic Monarchs (which would enable their wives to wear white)? Is it true that Italian princesses can wear white?

And if I understand the privilege, it is not granted by the Pope to an individual but to any holder of the office. So, the Princess of Asturias and the Duchess of Brabant will both gain the privilège du blanc when their husbands ascend the throne, right?

And what if a monarch from a now abolished monarchy has been granted the honour of Catholic Monarch? Do the wives of their heirs enjoy the privilege today?

 

[EmpressRouge]

There are lots of photos and information in this thread.
http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f164/royals-visiting-the-pope-2809.html

 

[RoyalistRiley]

I know that only the Queen of Spain, the Queen of the Belgians, Queen Fabiola of Belgium, Italian princesses and the Grand Duchess of Luxembourg are allowed to wear white in Vatican City. All others must wear black. Can you post photographs of them using their privilege?

So why do these monarchs get the privelige? Is it because they are Catholic?

 

[Lumutqueen]

So why do these monarchs get the privelige? Is it because they are Catholic?

Yes, because they are Catholic Monarchs they wear white.

As of July 2010, those to whom the privilège du blanc extends are Queen Sofia of Spain, Queen Paola of Belgium, Queen Fabiola of Belgium, and Grand Duchess Maria Teresa of Luxembourg. Consorts to French pretendants to the throne of France have also in the past appeared dressed in white before the Pope.

 

[Kotroman]

Being Catholic and being a monarch (or a monarch's wife) does not grant you the right to go to Vatican wearing white. As lumutqueen said, only those granted the title of "Catholic Monarch" have that privilege. The Princesses of Monaco and Liechtenstein, for example, do not have that privilege. They have to wear black, even though they are Catholic and royal, because the the title of "Catholic Monarch" has not been granted to rulers of Monaco and Liechtenstein.

 

[EmpressRouge]

Also, certain (non-reigning) families in Italy were granted the rights. Princesses from the House of Savoy can wear white (not just the queens). I'm still am not sure about Hapsburg Archduchesses of Austria. Has anyone seen pictures Princess Astrid of Belgium or Marie-Astrid of Luxembourg visiting the Pope?

 

[amedea]

Also, certain (non-reigning) families in Italy were granted the rights. Princesses from the House of Savoy can wear white (not just the queens). I'm still am not sure about Hapsburg Archduchesses of Austria. Has anyone seen pictures Princess Astrid of Belgium or Marie-Astrid of Luxembourg visiting the Pope?

As you can see here (canonization of Charles I) all archduchesses, the princess of Liechtenstein etc wear black. Queen Fabiola is very recognizable for wearing white. I would like to see if Zita used to wear white visiting the Pope. Did Sissi ever visited him?

 

[4Pam]

Is it only non reigning and reigning Catholic monarchs or can a wife president of a Catholic country wear white too?