Royal Courtiers, Ladies in Waiting, Staff, etc

[SirGyamfi1]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

Beside the UK also Denmark, the Netherlands, Sweden, all have hofdames, dames du palais, chamberlains, foresters, equerries, stewards, treasurers, all have fully functioning royal mews, royal archives, etc.

But in all monarchies we see that the traditional "pool" of aristocracy and patriciate is changed for professional staff and an "inclusive policy" as well.

Less an lesser a baroness this-and-that or a countess so-and-so with sparkling family jewels in the entourage of royal ladies but more and more staff detached from ministerial departments or the armed forces.

That takes away the real "feel" of a royal court. Many Courts more and more look like a ministerial department, with a career carrousel and less an lesser as "a family business" where courtiers stay for a lifetime.

Sometimes this is enforced by the Government by the way. A recent example in Luxembourg where the whole Court organization was practically taken away from the Grand-Duke and is now under supervision of a manager, directly ressorting under the Premier Minister.

I understand that most European monarchies bar Spain retain ladies in waiting and all necessary staff for court. But I understand what you’re saying. The example of Luxembourg is an unusual one because they don’t have much of an aristocracy like the other monarchies. Those changes seem clinical and like a compartmentalized government institution and see Spain too, since Juan Carlos and Sofia came to power, aristocratic court positions have been swept aside and there are no ladies in waiting.

[An Ard Ri]

Originally Posted by CyrilVladisla

Josepha Boegart was a lady in waiting to Queen Marie de Medici of France.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...he_Younger.jpg

There were 2 types of French Ladies in waiting/Dames d'honneur.

Femmes Mariées (married ladies-in-waiting)
Filles d'honneur (Maids of Honour)

It was Jeanne I de Navarre who first established a separate Household for the Queen of France as Jeanne was a monarch in her own rite (queen of Navarre) and queen consort of France.

King François Ier once said "a court without ladies is a court without a court"

[Duc_et_Pair]

In Belgium there are no ladies-in-waiting either. For official functions the Queen requests a lady to function as Eredame / Dame d'honneur for the event only. There is a pool of five: Clotilde Boël born De Peñaranda (yes, married into Delphine's step-family), Laurence Van de Werve van de Schilde born De Ghellinck d’Elseghem Vaernewijck (nobility), Lindsay Edwards (owns a translators' office in Brussels), Melissa Maas born Van Waeyenberge (a pharmacist in Brussels) and Patricia Vlerick born Bouckaert (from an industrial family).


The difference is that in Mathilde's system the lady is only for public engagements, as a company, while a classic Hofdame (lady-in-waiting) or a Dame du Palais (the name already says it) has an office and a salon inside the palace, belongs to the highest echelons of the Household and also does representation on behalf of the royal lady they are in service to.

[JR76]

Originally Posted by Blog Real

What is currently the most traditional court in Europe?

Queen Margrethe, who's no stranger to pomp herself, famously said a few years that the most formal court in Europe was the Swedish one. Even though much of the old ceremonial court went out the door during the reforms instigated by Queen Louise after 1950 they still retain many uniforms, court positions that are staffed when needed and ceremonies (the reception of new ambassadors for example is done to a centuries old ceremonial).

Originally Posted by SirGyamfi1

I would say the British Royal court because they still retain ladies in waiting and large entourage.

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

Beside the UK also Denmark, the Netherlands, Sweden, all have hofdames, dames du palais, chamberlains, foresters, equerries, stewards, treasurers, all have fully functioning royal mews, royal archives, etc.

But in all monarchies we see that the traditional "pool" of aristocracy and patriciate is changed for professional staff and an "inclusive policy" as well.

Less an lesser a baroness this-and-that or a countess so-and-so with sparkling family jewels in the entourage of royal ladies but more and more staff detached from ministerial departments or the armed forces.

That takes away the real "feel" of a royal court. Many Courts more and more look like a ministerial department, with a career carrousel and less an lesser as "a family business" where courtiers stay for a lifetime.

The court in famously egalitarian (well... that's for another discussion) Sweden has a surprising amount of noble women. The Queen's ladies-in-waiting include a Baroness von Schwerin and the Head of the Queen's Household is a Countess Hamilton who's the granddaughter of a court chamberlain and the great-granddaughter of a marshal of the court. Another courtier who so to say has the job in her blood is the current Mistress of the Robes, Baroness von Blixen-Finecke, who is the niece-in-law of the former mistress, Countess Trolle-Wachtmeister. Funnily enough it seems that the ladies comes from a more traditional background than the men. That, I'm sure, will change after Crown Princess Victoria ascends the throne. She has military aide-de-camps instead of ladies-in-waiting and the traditional organisation of the court into a "male" household for the king and a "female" household for the queen will not hold up for a queen and a prince.

[Tatiana Maria]

Originally Posted by JR76

The court in famously egalitarian (well... that's for another discussion) Sweden has a surprising amount of noble women. The Queen's ladies-in-waiting include a Baroness von Schwerin and the Head of the Queen's Household is a Countess Hamilton who's the granddaughter of a court chamberlain and the great-granddaughter of a marshal of the court. Another courtier who so to say has the job in her blood is the current Mistress of the Robes, Baroness von Blixen-Finecke, who is the niece-in-law of the former mistress, Countess Trolle-Wachtmeister. Funnily enough it seems that the ladies comes from a more traditional background than the men.

It seems especially odd given that the Queen herself was a trailblazer in being the first commoner-born (Swedish) queen since the Middle Ages.

Originally Posted by JR76

That, I'm sure, will change after Crown Princess Victoria ascends the throne. She has military aide-de-camps instead of ladies-in-waiting and the traditional organisation of the court into a "male" household for the king and a "female" householde for the queen will not hold up for a queen and a prince.

Has Prince Daniel established a household of his own? I don't think I have seen it discussed on the official website.

[An Ard Ri]

One of the most famous of Catherine de Médicis ladies was Charlotte de Beaune Semblançay, Viscountess of Tours, Baroness de Sauve, Marquise de Noirmoutier who was a member of Catherine's infamous "Flying Squadron" (L'escadron volant).
These beautiful ladies were used to seduce noble men in exchange for pillow talk or information which which was then passed onto the queen.

Charlotte de Sauve

[JR76]

Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria

It seems especially odd given that the Queen herself was a trailblazer in being the first commoner-born (Swedish) queen since the Middle Ages.

Silvia Sommerlath might have been born a commoner, but she was born into the German upper-middle class and partly grew up among the Brazilian gentry. The lifestyle of the social circle she became part of in Sweden might have been grander than she was accustomed to, but she was no stranger to it. Since her ladies-in-waiting are recruited through her and her courtiers's social network it's no wonder that they have an upper-class background. In the beginning many of them were nurses since the Queen felt that their training and people skills would be useful for a lady-in-waiting.

Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria

Has Prince Daniel established a household of his own? I don't think I have seen it discussed on the official website.

No, Daniel is part of the Crown Princess Household.

[Tatiana Maria]

Originally Posted by JR76

Silvia Sommerlath might have been born a commoner, but she was born into the German upper-middle class and partly grew up among the Brazilian gentry. The lifestyle of the social circle she became part of in Sweden might have been grander than she was accustomed to, but she was no stranger to it. Since her ladies-in-waiting are recruited through her and her courtiers's social network it's no wonder that they have an upper-class background. In the beginning many of them were nurses since the Queen felt that their training and people skills would be useful for a lady-in-waiting.

Interesting, so a large proportion of the Swedish upper class consists of nobility? Hiring ladies-in-waiting with nursing backgrounds seems like it would also serve the Queen's later dementia care work well.

[Duc_et_Pair]

When Queen Beatrix abdicated, all courtiers offered their position into His new Majesty'a gracious consideration, as the Constitution says "The King shall organize his own House".

Queen Máxima has lesser hofdames than Queen Beatrix, from 9 back to 5, which was explained as: the new Queen is a Consort. That means no investitures of new ministers, no credentials of new ambassadors, no audiences to dignitaries. There simply are fewer Hofdames needed. Undoubtedly the number will double again under Queen Catharina-Amalia, as she will have the position and the agenda of a head-of-state indeed.

Her dames are all from nobility or patriciate: Marie-Louise Alexandra ("Bibi") gravin Van Zuylen van Nijevelt - jonkvrouw Den Beer Poortugael, Ottoline Antoinette ("Lieke") Gaarlandt - Van Voorst van Beesd, Anna Magdalena ("Annemijn") Crince le Roy - Van Munster van Heuven, Joséphine Maria ("Pien") van Karnebeek - Thijssen

[tommy100]

On ladies in waiting / hofdames conversation. It is interesting to note that neither The Duchess of Cornwall or the Duchess of Cambridge currently have any ladies in waiting of their own even though the former Princess of Wales did, as so the Princess Royal and Princess Alexandra. I wonder what this means for the future of the lady in waiting role.

[SirGyamfi1]

Originally Posted by tommy100

On ladies in waiting / hofdames conversation. It is interesting to note that neither The Duchess of Cornwall or the Duchess of Cambridge currently have any ladies in waiting of their own even though the former Princess of Wales did, as so the Princess Royal and Princess Alexandra. I wonder what this means for the future of the lady in waiting role.

Duchess of Cornwall has ladies in waiting, but Kate doesn’t maybe because she doesn’t need one right now

[Somebody]

Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria

It seems especially odd given that the Queen herself was a trailblazer in being the first commoner-born (Swedish) queen since the Middle Ages.

Maybe that's why they felt that she needed a rather 'noble' court especially because she didn't have the background herself.

[tommy100]

Originally Posted by SirGyamfi1

Duchess of Cornwall has ladies in waiting, but Kate doesn’t maybe because she doesn’t need one right now

I've never heard of Camilla having a lady in waiting so would be interested to hear who they are if she does? I know she often was accompanied by Amanda McManus who was her Private Secretary.

Interesting about Queen Silvia, I never really knew how full of nobles the Swedish court was, which does seem odd given the public perception of Sweden.

[SirGyamfi1]

Originally Posted by tommy100

I've never heard of Camilla having a lady in waiting so would be interested to hear who they are if she does? I know she often was accompanied by Amanda McManus who was her Private Secretary.

Interesting about Queen Silvia, I never really knew how full of nobles the Swedish court was, which does seem odd given the public perception of Sweden.

Sorry, I thought Amanda was a lady in waiting. Got that wrong. As for Sweden, regardless of how “egalitarian” the country seems to be, and the fact that the nobility has been reduced to a being a sort of “private members club”, it still has a monarchy and some nobles will be part of court life.

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

When Queen Beatrix abdicated, all courtiers offered their position into His new Majesty'a gracious consideration, as the Constitution says "The King shall organize his own House".

Queen Máxima has lesser hofdames than Queen Beatrix, from 9 back to 5, which was explained as: the new Queen is a Consort. That means no investitures of new ministers, no credentials of new ambassadors, no audiences to dignitaries. There simply are fewer Hofdames needed. Undoubtedly the number will double again under Queen Catharina-Amalia, as she will have the position and the agenda of a head-of-state indeed.

Her dames are all from nobility or patriciate: Marie-Louise Alexandra ("Bibi") gravin Van Zuylen van Nijevelt - jonkvrouw Den Beer Poortugael, Ottoline Antoinette ("Lieke") Gaarlandt - Van Voorst van Beesd, Anna Magdalena ("Annemijn") Crince le Roy - Van Munster van Heuven, Joséphine Maria ("Pien") van Karnebeek - Thijssen

Correction: in the meantime Ottoline Antoinette Gaarlandt - Van Voorst van Beesd has offered her resignation as hofdame because of her advanced age (75 years) and the King has not yet appointed a new lady.

This hofdame was special as it was the one who guided a certain Ms Máxima Zorreguieta Cerruti into royal life since 2001. Picture: https://www.imago-images.de/bild/st/0082943700/w.jpg

[JR76]

Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria

Interesting, so a large proportion of the Swedish upper class consists of nobility? Hiring ladies-in-waiting with nursing backgrounds seems like it would also serve the Queen's later dementia care work well.

I have no idea about numbers. It would also be impossible to say given that nobody knows how big the upper-class is and how to define it. It's a case of knowing who's "one of us" and who isn't.
Many nobles aren't upper-class and many members of the upper-class aren't nobles.

Originally Posted by Somebody

Maybe that's why they felt that she needed a rather 'noble' court especially because she didn't have the background herself.

I doubt that it's a conscious choice to hire nobles. Of the Queen's first two ladies-in-waiting one was a commoner and one was a noble married to a commoner. Added to that was the First Lady of the Court, the formidable Countess Alice Trolle-Wachtmeister.
It's most likely the consequence of the recruitment process which seems to been done exclusively through networking. As my example earlier in the discussion shows many of the ladies are related to each other or have other courtiers in the family.
What's noteworthy is that a commoner has never been neither Mistress of the Robes nor First Lady of the Court.

Originally Posted by tommy100

I've never heard of Camilla having a lady in waiting so would be interested to hear who they are if she does? I know she often was accompanied by Amanda McManus who was her Private Secretary.

Interesting about Queen Silvia, I never really knew how full of nobles the Swedish court was, which does seem odd given the public perception of Sweden.

The Queen's Household has had many nobles through the years, but both the King's Household and the Crown Princess House are to my knowledge staffed, either exclusively or at least overwhelmingly, with commoners.

It's worth noting that in Sweden a commoner (ofrälse) is anyone that isn't part of the nobility (frälset or adel) or the Royal family.

[An Ard Ri]

Diane de Poitiers started her 'career ' at court at a Maid of Honour to Anne de France,Duchess de Bourbon and Regent of France.
Following her marriage she served Queen Claude as a lady-in-waiting and after her death she served the King's powerful mother,Louise de Savoie.
Louise died in 1531 and Diane served the new queen,Eleanor of Austria as lady-in-waiting before becoming the mistress of the future Henri II.
In July 1559,Henri's widow,Queen Catherine now in power banished Diane from Court and exiled her to the Château'd Anet where she died in 1566.

Diane de Poitiers duchesse de Valentinois (1499-1566)

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by JR76

[...]

It's worth noting that in Sweden a commoner (ofrälse) is anyone that isn't part of the nobility (frälset or adel) or the Royal family.

That is the same in the Benelux Countries:

- individuals belonging to the Royal House (which has a legal definition and is not the same as the royal family);

- individuals belonging to the Nobility;

- and all other individuals.


Belonging to the Nobility has no any privilege other than that the use of noble titles/surnames and coats of arms are defined and protected by law.

[Tatiana Maria]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

That is the same in the Benelux Countries:

- individuals belonging to the Royal House (which has a legal definition and is not the same as the royal family);

- individuals belonging to the Nobility;

- and all other individuals.

Belonging to the Nobility has no any privilege other than that the use of noble titles/surnames and coats of arms are defined and protected by law.

Membership of the Royal House (but not the Royal Family) of the Netherlands is defined by act of parliament. Membership of the Grand-Ducal House and Grand-Ducal Family of Luxembourg is defined by house law. There is no legal definition of the Royal Family or House of Belgium other than the definition used in the Penal Code, which seems outdated.

In Belgium and the Netherlands, the titles of the Royal Family are defined by law as titles of nobility (albeit ones governed by special legislation instead of the standard nobiliary law), so I suppose the titled members of those families technically belong to the Nobility as well. I am not sure about Luxembourg.

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

Correction: in the meantime Ottoline Antoinette Gaarlandt - Van Voorst van Beesd has offered her resignation as hofdame because of her advanced age (75 years) and the King has not yet appointed a new lady.

This hofdame was special as it was the one who guided a certain Ms Máxima Zorreguieta Cerruti into royal life since 2001. Picture: https://www.imago-images.de/bild/st/0082943700/w.jpg

Thanks. Just a small correction: In accordance with Argentinean custom, Ms Máxima Zorreguieta carried only the name of her father before her marriage.
See sources: https://www.theroyalforums.com/forum...ml#post2372584

[An Ard Ri]

Louise de Montmorency was the first wife of French Admiral ,Gaspard I de Coligny.

Louise served as the Première dame d'honneur to Eleanor of Austria from 1530 to 1535.Louise came from a ultra Catholic noble house but later becamea Calvinist before her death in 1547.



Another French Lady in Waiting was Françoise de Rohan

Françoise de Rohan was the daughter of Isabeau d’Albret,Viscount de Rohan (sister of Henri II of Navarre) and a cousin of Jeanne d'Albret,queen of Navarre.
Like her mother and cousin ,Francoise became a Calvinist and had served as a lady in waiting to Catherine de Médicis.
Despite several attempts by queen Catherine to recant she refused.