Precedence - Who Outranks Who?

[Muhler]

The Japanese Emperor is head of state, the other royals are heads of states as well, so they are equal. Regardless of their titles.

[Durham]

Yes indeed I fully agree.

[JR76]

King Carl Gustav and Queen Silvia of Sweden was once asked in an interview if any reigning royal was considered more prominent than others and gave the reply that the royals themselves counted by the length of their respective reigns.

[Spheno]

Originally Posted by JR76

King Carl Gustav and Queen Silvia of Sweden was once asked in an interview if any reigning royal was considered more prominent than others and gave the reply that the royals themselves counted by the length of their respective reigns.

Indeed they use this system, but (sometimes?) combine it with titles hierarchy.
As you can see HIH Crown Prince Naruhito had higher precedence then HRH Prince of Wales:
https://as1.ftcdn.net/jpg/01/56/76/9...z3CZlBoAeN.jpg
https://www.nobility-association.com...20families.png

[JR76]

Originally Posted by Spheno

Indeed they use this system, but (sometimes?) combine it with titles hierarchy.
As you can see HIH Crown Prince Naruhito had higher precedence then HRH Prince of Wales:
https://as1.ftcdn.net/jpg/01/56/76/9...z3CZlBoAeN.jpg
https://www.nobility-association.com...20families.png

They're seated exactly the same?

[Durham]

There certainly seems to be a lack of consistency among the courts of Europe with regard to different titles. There would appear to be no accepted notion of a titles hierarchy.

For instance, at the wedding of the then Prince of Asturias the Prince of Wales was given precedence over the Japanese Crown Prince. The exact reverse of seating arrangements at the Dutch celebrations. Seating at the Spanish wedding appears to have been set by direct heirs being placed according to the length of reign of their respective parent.

The Spanish Crown is among the great monarchies of Europe with a glorious history stretching back many centuries whereas the Dutch is, in the scheme of things (& with the greatest of respect), much newer. Spanish Kings at one time ruled over vast possessions from Europe to the Americas to the Philippines. Indeed at one time what is now the whole of the Kingdom of the Netherlands was but just one small part of the empire of Phillip II.

I would suspect that the Spanish approach might be more influential among royal watchers.

[Durham]

I have also just double checked but if you look at the formal wedding photograph of the wedding of Crown Princess Victoria it shows the Crown Prince & Princess of Denmark, the then Prince & Princess of Orange & the then Prince & Princess of Asturias as being placed ahead of the then Crown Prince Naruhito.

So the Swedish Court also does not place HIH ahead of an HRH.

So the Spanish & Swedish would appear to treat HRH & HIH the same but the Dutch appear to do something differently.

I'm pretty sure that the British & Danish courts follow what the Spanish & Swedes do.

[Stefan]

At the fuenral of Grand Duke Jean on May the different members of the royal houses came in order after the lenght of the reign with the longest reigning last. And bgefore it was also divided first the junior members, the the heirs and the the Head of 'States. And among these first Monaco and Liechtenstein who are HSH and the the royal Houses.

[Tatiana Maria]

How do non-European courts place foreign monarchs (or royals) in their order of precedence?

[Durham]

Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria

How do non-European courts place foreign monarchs (or royals) in their order of precedence?

If you look at the diamond jubilee celebrations of the late King Bhumibol of Thailand foreign monarchs are placed according to the length of their reigns.

For instance the Sultan of Brunei & the King of Sweden are seated in the places of highest honour near/next to the late king. Next come the King of Swaziland & the Emperor of Japan & so on.

As an aside it is interesting that we in the west don't translate the word sultan but do translate the word tenno. I wonder why that is.

[Durham]

Originally Posted by Stefan

At the fuenral of Grand Duke Jean on May the different members of the royal houses came in order after the lenght of the reign with the longest reigning last. And bgefore it was also divided first the junior members, the the heirs and the the Head of 'States. And among these first Monaco and Liechtenstein who are HSH and the the royal Houses.

It would appear that those of princely rank are treated differently. I presume this has to do with the history of especially the German speaking lands where there were so many different types of rulers. I wonder are the mediatized houses ranked differently.

Unfortunately I do not read German (a little French) but I wonder if there are sources on this.

[Stefan]

Originally Posted by Durham

It would appear that those of princely rank are treated differently. I presume this has to do with the history of especially the German speaking lands where there were so many different types of rulers. I wonder are the mediatized houses ranked differently.

No Idea about mediatized Houses as when they attend an Event in an reigning House like the fuenral of GD Jean the usually come in busses together with the members of former reigning Houses.
At one Wedding don't rembemer whoch one but i think it was the one of CP Haakon the members of the reigning houses where sorted in fist arrived Monaco as Princely House, the Luxembourg as Grand Ducal House and then the royal Houses.

[Durham]

Originally Posted by Stefan

No Idea about mediatized Houses as when they attend an Event in an reigning House like the fuenral of GD Jean the usually come in busses together with the members of former reigning Houses.
At one Wedding don't rembemer whoch one but i think it was the one of CP Haakon the members of the reigning houses where sorted in fist arrived Monaco as Princely House, the Luxembourg as Grand Ducal House and then the royal Houses.

Thank you that's very interesting.

If you look at the wedding procession in St Paul's Cathedral from 1981 guests from foreign houses progress as they did at the Norwegian wedding with the princely houses first etc.

However by the time we come to the 2012 monarchs lunch at Windsor Castle monarchs (whatever their title) are seated very clearly by length of reign. So for example the Prince of Liechtenstein is on the front row ahead of the kings of Lesotho, Jordan, Norway, Malaysia, Bahrain & the Belgians on the second row. Likewise the Prince of Monaco, the Emir of Qatar & the Grand Duke of Luxembourg are ahead of the King of Tonga who is on the third row.

Interestingly, Tonga is a kingdom despite being smaller in area & population than the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg. In addition, Qatar is an emirate (principality) but it is larger & more populous than Bahrain which is a kingdom.

[Stefan]

Originally Posted by Durham

Thank you that's very interesting.

If you look at the wedding procession in St Paul's Cathedral from 1981 guests from foreign houses progress as they did at the Norwegian wedding with the princely houses first etc.

But as far as i rember only with the european Houses not the one from Asia etc. At the Wedding in 23011 the entrane and arrival of the guersts was quiet messy and then not too much was shown on TV. Here on german TV they preferred to show the car with Mrs middleton (they did not even know she was in it).

[Tatiana Maria]

Originally Posted by Durham

If you look at the diamond jubilee celebrations of the late King Bhumibol of Thailand foreign monarchs are placed according to the length of their reigns.

For instance the Sultan of Brunei & the King of Sweden are seated in the places of highest honour near/next to the late king. Next come the King of Swaziland & the Emperor of Japan & so on.

As an aside it is interesting that we in the west don't translate the word sultan but do translate the word tenno. I wonder why that is.

Thanks. I wonder whether this order of precedence finds its roots in the European or non-European monarchies (probably the former as European monarchies appear to have more sway over non-European monarchies than the other way around).

[maria-olivia]

For the Former Enthronement (Pictures of the Royal Watcher) King Baudouin and Queen Fabiola outhrank the other Monarchs because He was King since 1951.

[theroyalfly]

Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria

Thanks. I wonder whether this order of precedence finds its roots in the European or non-European monarchies (probably the former as European monarchies appear to have more sway over non-European monarchies than the other way around).

Who knows but it's a different case in Asia. Oriental Monarchy has different set of rules depending on the place of origin and is more rigid. It's also more complex in terms of titles and styles and rules of court, curtsies and such, posthumous names and titles. Even with birth name's--- it's well thought of.

Originally Posted by maria-olivia

For the Former Enthronement (Pictures of the Royal Watcher) King Baudouin and Queen Fabiola outhrank the other Monarchs because He was King since 1951.

Indeed, Maria-Olivia. Let's see if it's still going to be the case in this year's enthronement ceremony.

[Durham]

Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria

Thanks. I wonder whether this order of precedence finds its roots in the European or non-European monarchies (probably the former as European monarchies appear to have more sway over non-European monarchies than the other way around).

An interesting question Tatiana Maria. I'm not at all sure.

I take your point about European vs non-European.

[Durham]

Originally Posted by Stefan

But as far as i rember only with the european Houses not the one from Asia etc. At the Wedding in 23011 the entrane and arrival of the guersts was quiet messy and then not too much was shown on TV. Here on german TV they preferred to show the car with Mrs middleton (they did not even know she was in it).

Ah yes you're right about that from 1981.

It is a shame about 2011 especially since we are not likely to see another royal wedding in London at either at the abbey or St Paul's for another generation. The BBC really should know better!

[maria-olivia]

The Senior Monarchs are sending their Heirs.(UK, Sweden and Norway)
The Junior Monarchs will attend . King Willem Alexander will be the first ? or Prince Albert de Monaco ??