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  #201  
Old 11-14-2021, 11:49 AM
Majesty
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Pittsburgh, United States
Posts: 7,405
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Unofficial as it may be (although it's my belief that the King and Court nevertheless take it seriously), Prince Daniel has been ranked behind Prince Carl Philip on nearly every occasion where Crown Princess Victoria was not present. Guest lists, receiving lines, and communiqués illustrate the principle:

https://www.kungahuset.se/kungafamil...03ad1685e.html
https://www.kungahuset.se/kungafamil...4f7102eeb.html
https://www.kungahuset.se/press/pres...e148c3584.html
https://www.kungahuset.se/kungafamil...119aad58f.html

The same order has been applied when Prince Daniel and Princess Madeleine were present without the Crown Princess.

https://www.kungahuset.se/kungafamil...800010371.html

Princess Sofia has also outranked Prince Daniel whenever she has accompanied her husband whereas Daniel was unaccompanied by his wife. I have not been able to find an official event which both of them attended without their spouses.

https://www.kungahuset.se/kungafamil...cc9979ffa.html




Yes, I agree it is one likely cause of the King's assignment of a low rank to Daniel in the unofficial order of precedence. Had Carl Philip been the Crown Prince, the King would probably have had second thoughts about not permitting his son's wife to share her husband's rank, even if Crown Prince Carl Philip had married a woman with whom the King had an acrimonious relationship.

But I am not sure whether it is the only cause. The Duke of Edinburgh, the Prince Consort of Denmark and Prince Claus of the Netherlands never shared their wives' style of Majesty and Queen. Yet the Duke of Edinburgh was not ranked beneath Princess Margaret, Prince Henrik was not ranked beneath Princess Benedikte, and as far as I know Prince Claus was not ranked beneath Princess Margriet, in their respective orders of precedence (official or unofficial). And King Carl XVI Gustaf would have been familiar with the precedence of those other European male consorts.
If the TV series Victoria is correct , Prince Albert was originally ranked below Queen Victoria’s uncles in the table of precedence. Queen Elizabeth II made an specific point of placing Prince Philip at the highest position in the order of precedence for men after herself, and ahead of the Prince of Wales.

That is also true btw in Spain according to the RD of 1983, I.e., the “consort of the Queen” explicitly outranks the Prince or Princess of Asturias. In order of precedence. I am not sure about Denmark though. Wasn’t there an occasion when the Queen was not present and Prince Henrik complained he was accorded lower precedence than CP Frederik?
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  #202  
Old 11-14-2021, 12:05 PM
JR76's Avatar
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Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Malmö, Sweden
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
The only exception was Henri, whom suddenly was placed behind his son Frederik at an event and this led to a conflict.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
In order of precedence. I am not sure about Denmark though. Wasn’t there an occasion when the Queen was not present and Prince Henrik complained he was accorded lower precedence than CP Frederik?
The Ambassador's reception on January 3, 2002. The Crown Prince took his mother's place because she had broken a few ribs two days before.
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  #203  
Old 11-14-2021, 01:35 PM
Gentry
 
Join Date: May 2020
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Unofficial as it may be (although it's my belief that the King and Court nevertheless take it seriously), Prince Daniel has been ranked behind Prince Carl Philip on nearly every occasion where Crown Princess Victoria was not present. Guest lists, receiving lines, and communiqués illustrate the principle:

https://www.kungahuset.se/kungafamil...03ad1685e.html
https://www.kungahuset.se/kungafamil...4f7102eeb.html
https://www.kungahuset.se/press/pres...e148c3584.html
https://www.kungahuset.se/kungafamil...119aad58f.html

The same order has been applied when Prince Daniel and Princess Madeleine were present without the Crown Princess.

https://www.kungahuset.se/kungafamil...800010371.html

Princess Sofia has also outranked Prince Daniel whenever she has accompanied her husband whereas Daniel was unaccompanied by his wife. I have not been able to find an official event which both of them attended without their spouses.

https://www.kungahuset.se/kungafamil...cc9979ffa.html




Yes, I agree it is one likely cause of the King's assignment of a low rank to Daniel in the unofficial order of precedence. Had Carl Philip been the Crown Prince, the King would probably have had second thoughts about not permitting his son's wife to share her husband's rank, even if Crown Prince Carl Philip had married a woman with whom the King had an acrimonious relationship.

But I am not sure whether it is the only cause. The Duke of Edinburgh, the Prince Consort of Denmark and Prince Claus of the Netherlands never shared their wives' style of Majesty and Queen. Yet the Duke of Edinburgh was not ranked beneath Princess Margaret, Prince Henrik was not ranked beneath Princess Benedikte, and as far as I know Prince Claus was not ranked beneath Princess Margriet, in their respective orders of precedence (official or unofficial). And King Carl XVI Gustaf would have been familiar with the precedence of those other European male consorts.

I wonder, did the above mentioned prince consorts have that high ranking before their respective spouses became monarchs?
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  #204  
Old 11-14-2021, 05:17 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: St Thomas, U.S. Minor Outlying Islands
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
By my knowledge Albert von Sachsen-Coburg und Gotha (UK), Heinrich von Mecklenburg-Schwerin (NL), Félix de Bourbon de Parme (Lux), Pierre de Polignac (Mon), Bernhard zur Lippe-Biesterfeld (NL), Philip of Greece and Denmark (UK), Henri de Laborde de Montpezat (Den) and Claus von Amsberg (NL) always took the place direct after the Sovereign. The only exception was Henri, whom suddenly was placed behind his son Frederik at an event and this led to a conflict.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
That is also true btw in Spain according to the RD of 1983, I.e., the “consort of the Queen” explicitly outranks the Prince or Princess of Asturias. In order of precedence. I am not sure about Denmark though. Wasn’t there an occasion when the Queen was not present and Prince Henrik complained he was accorded lower precedence than CP Frederik?
Prince Henrik's precedence at the New Year's reception of 2002 was a different situation to the routine placement of Prince Daniel behind his brother- and sister-in-law when his wife is not present. In 2002, as JR76 pointed out, Crown Prince Frederik was attending in the role of Regent and stand-in for the Queen. Even then, Prince Henrik was treated as the co-host of the reception.

Further, even if the prince consort had hypothetically been outranked by his oldest son as a matter of routine, it would still have been quite different from Prince Daniel's precedence, as Frederik is a Crown Prince whereas Carl Philip and Madeleine are only the younger siblings of a Crown Princess. The Danish equivalent would be if Prince Henrik had been outranked by Princess Benedikte whenever Princess/Queen Margrethe was absent.
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  #205  
Old 11-14-2021, 06:54 PM
Majesty
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Pittsburgh, United States
Posts: 7,405
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post

So I would apply the principles of your first interpretation to all monarchies with such succession rules. But where the monarchies distinguish between the Royal House, the Royal Family, and the private family of the monarch, or between different degrees of titles, or between males and females, those divisions should be incorporated into the order of precedence if they determine the official standing of royals (so I would not place Princess Anne behind her brothers in the order of precedence, though she remains behind them in the order of succession, because in practice she is a more senior working royal).

I would include any family members who attend royal events, even sporadically, to avoid having to make decisions about their precedence case-by-case.

Thus, my preferred order of precedence for the royal princesses and princes of the blood would be

For the UK:

The Queen
The Prince of Wales
The Duke of Cambridge

The Princess Royal
The Duke of York
The Earl of Wessex
The Duke of Sussex

The Duke of Gloucester
The Duke of Kent
Princess Alexandra, the Hon. Lady Ogilvy
Prince Michael of Kent
Princess Beatrice, Mrs. Edoardo Mapelli Mozzi
Princess Eugenie, Mrs. Jack Brooksbank

For Spain:

The King
King Juan Carlos
The Princess of Asturias

Infanta Margarita
Infanta Elena
Infanta Cristina
Infanta Sofía

The Marchioness of Laula
Princess Inés
Prince Pedro
etc.

For consorts, either application of the same precedence as their spouses or placing them below the born royals would be acceptable to me provided it is consistently applied to all consorts (in contrast to Sweden where Prince Daniel seems to be the only consort who is constantly demoted below his brother-in-law).
In the case of Spain, RDs 2099/1983 and 1368/1987 (as amended by RD 470/2014) do not actually include a rule to order the Infantes/Infantas in precedence among themselves. The RDs only say that Infantes/Infantas are outranked by: (1) The King or Queen of Spain; (2) The Queen consort or the consort of the Queen; (3) The Prince or Princess of Asturias; and (4) specifically in the case of Infantes/Infantas who are not descendants of King Felipe VI, by King Juan Carlos and Queen Sofia. The RD of 1983 says, however, that the Casa Real must give previous notice to the government of which members of the RF will be in attendance at a public event indicating how they should be placed taking into account the general rules of precedence in the RD. So I understand it is up to the Casa Real to rank the Infantes/Infantas by precedence at each event.

Nevertheless, the practice used in Spain seems to be to consider the current order of precedence to be as follows:
  1. HM The King
  2. HM The Queen
  3. HRH The Princess of Asturias
  4. HRH Infanta Sofia
  5. HM King Juan Carlos
  6. HM Queen Sofia
  7. HRH Infanta Elena, Duchess of Lugo
  8. HRH Infanta Cristina
  9. HRH Infanta Margarita, Duchess of Hernani and Soria

Based on the same reasoning, if Leonor for example were married and had children, the precedence would be :
  1. HM The King
  2. HM The Queen
  3. HRH The Princess of Asturias
  4. (The consort of the Princess of Asturias; also styled Prince of Asturias under RD 1369/1987).
  5. (The children of the Princess of Asturias, by order of primogeniture, styled Infante/Infanta under RD 1368/1987)
  6. HRH Infanta Sofia
  7. HM King Juan Carlos
  8. HM Queen Sofia
  9. HRH Infanta Elena, Duchess of Lugo
  10. HRH Infanta Cristina, former Duchess of Palma de Mallorca
  11. HRH Infanta Margarita, Duchess of Hernani and Soria



I don't think Prince Pedro for example has official precedence because, unlike his father, he is not officially an Infante. Infante Carlos, when he was alive, was customarily listed immediately below King JC's sisters, i.e. Infanta Pilar and Infanta Margarita.

Note: Under the constitution of 1978, it is unclear whether King JC's sisters or the Duke of Calabria were in the line of succession. The majority opinion, I think, is that the line of succession is currently limited only to JC's descendants. Nonetheless, all Infantes/Infantas legally have precedence and are entitled to military honors in military events which they preside or designated civil events (RD 684/2010). Conversely, Infanta Elena's or Infanta Cristina's children (or, in the future, Infanta Sofia's children), even though they are in the line of succession, are not accorded official precedence and are not entitled to military honors; their only privilege under the RDs is the use of the style of Excellency.

In addition to Infantes/Infantas, military honors, of course, are also due to: (1) the King or Queen of Spain; (2) the Queen consort or the consort of the Queen (explicitly mentioned in the RD 684/2010); (3) the Prince or Princess of Asturias; (4) the "Prince or Princess of Asturias consort" (explicitly mentioned under that style in the RD 684/2010).
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  #206  
Old 11-19-2021, 04:05 PM
Majesty
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Pittsburgh, United States
Posts: 7,405
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
But I am not sure whether it is the only cause. The Duke of Edinburgh, the Prince Consort of Denmark and Prince Claus of the Netherlands never shared their wives' style of Majesty and Queen. Yet the Duke of Edinburgh was not ranked beneath Princess Margaret, Prince Henrik was not ranked beneath Princess Benedikte, and as far as I know Prince Claus was not ranked beneath Princess Margriet, in their respective orders of precedence (official or unofficial). And King Carl XVI Gustaf would have been familiar with the precedence of those other European male consorts.
Just out of curiosity, when King George VI was still alive, did the Duke of Edinburgh outrank the Duke of Gloucester?
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