Ordinals In The Titles Of Monarchs

[Frothy]

Warren... if you want to go back ::cue spooky music:: WAAAAAY back, then in ancient Egypt the Romanesque queens of the Pharoah had numbers; Cleopatra of 'Anthony and Cleopatra' fame was Cleopatra VII, it was the tradition that Pharaoh, usually called Ptolomey, would take a bride Cleopatra and both would take numerals. Cleopatra VII held the power of a dowager through her own cunning and because her husband the Pharaoh Ptolomey was dead. Other than that I don't know.

Edited to add: Srivishnu said:

"But male consorts usually do not use the regnal number in their official name as they are not the monarch but female consorts is allowed to use the regnal number if they want to as they are the consort of the Head of State."

I don't know who told you this but they misled you. Queen consorts in Britain never, and I mean never, use a regnal number; it is reserved for the Head of State, the monarch. William III and Mary II were techincal co-regnants.

[Toledo]

Originally Posted by Warren

Is there an example of a British Queen Consort using a regnal number? Or non-British Queen Consorts?

I'm posting this quick by memory, so correct me if I'm wrong but I think the wife of William of Orange had one because they were both crowned as equals during the restoration, right? She was the heir to her father and her husband William of Orange was the one who had the military man power to put her on the throne, A kind of similar situation happened in Spain when Queen Isabel of Castille married King Fernando of Aragon and both combined their possesions into one country. They had numerals in history but I don't recall her having it in her lifetime since she was the first Isabel to use that name as Queen in her own right. The second one, in the 19th century, did use the numeral.

[Warren]

Originally Posted by Toledo

I'm posting this quick by memory, so correct me if I'm wrong but I think the wife of William of Orange had one because they were both crowned as equals during the restoration, right? She was the heir to her father and her husband William of Orange was the one who had the military man power to put her on the throne, A kind of similar situation happened in Spain when Queen Isabel of Castille married King Fernando of Aragon and both combined their possesions into one country. They had numerals in history but I don't recall her having it in her lifetime since she was the first Isabel to use that name as Queen in her own right. The second one, in the 19th century, did use the numeral.

Both William & Mary and Ferdinand & Isabel were joint monarchs; I'm trusting the member who claimed "female consorts [are] allowed to use the regnal number if they want to" will provide an example of one doing so (or provide the source for this statement).

[Furienna]

I don't think the consorts ever have numbers. Only monarchs have numbers. Instead, consorts are identified by their birth kingdom or their last name. This is the list of the monarchs, consorts and hei appearents in Sweden since the mid-1700s. Our current king's grandmother is brought into this list because she was supposed to become a queen and because she is an ancestor to our current royal family. For the same reason, I also put our current king's parents, who never became king and queen, even though that was the plan, in this list, in paranthesis. HG = Holstein-Gottorp dynasty, B = Bernadotte dynasty.

1. Adolf Frederic & Louise Ulrique of Prussia (HG)
2. Gustav III & Sophie Madeleine of Denmark. (HG)
3. Gustav IV Adolf & Fredrique of Baden. (HG)
4. Charles XIII & Charlotte of Oldenburg. (HG)
5. Charles XIV John & Desirée Clary. (B)
6. Oscar I & Josephine of Leuchtenberg. (B)
7. Charles XV & Louise of the Netherlands. (B)
8. Oscar II & Sophie of Nassau. (B)
9. Gustav V & Victoria of Baden. (B)
10. Gustav VI Adolf & Margareth of Connaught + Louise Mountbatten (Gustav Adolf was married twice. Margareth died, and three after her death, he got married to Louise. Margareth had children, but never became queen. Louise became queen, but never had children.) (B)
11. (Gustav Adolf Edmund & Sibylla of Sachsen-Coburg and Gotha. (B) )
12. Carl XVI Gustaf & Silvia Sommerlath. (B)

In the same way, this would be a list of the Brittish monarchs, consorts and heir appearants for the same time period. I put Frederic Louis and Augusta of Sachsen-Gotha into paranthesis, because they were supposed to become king and queen, and they are ancestors to the current royal family. Wallis Simpson is put into paranthesis as well, since she never was a queen. H = Hannover dynasty, W = Sachsen-Coburg and Gotha dynasty a k a Windsor dynasty.

1. George I & Sophie Dorothy of Celle. (H)
2. George II & Caroline of Brandenburg-Ansbach. (H)
3. (Frederic Louis & Augusta of Sachsen-Gotha. (H) )
4. George III & Charlotte of Mecklenburg-Strelitz. (H)
5. George VI & Caroline of Braunschweig. (H)
6. William IV & Adelaide of Saxe-Meiningen. (H)
7. Victoria (I) & Albert of Sachsen-Coburg and Gotha. (H)
8. Edward VII & Alexandra of Denmark. (W)
9. George V & Mary of Teck. (W)
10. Edward VIII (& Wallis Simpson). (W)
11. George VI & Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon. (W)
12. Elizabeth II & Philip Mountbatten. (W)

I believe our Swedish king Oscar I was always known as Oscar I after he had become our king, even before his son was known as King Oscar II. But I'm not sure.

[Toledo]

Is very rare to have the situation that would make two married monarchs using ordinals because traditionally the throne is inherited by one individual, not two.

Besides William and Mary of England and Isabel and Fernando of Spain, the only other historical curiosity that comes to mind is the case of Marie Therese of Austria and her husband, Francis, Duke of Lorraine. She is commonly known as Empress Marie Therese and is the only Hapsburg female that inherited the assorted family possesions. So she could be somewhat called Marie Therese I for her own possesions. But there was no Austrian Empire per se for her to be numbered Empress Maria Therese I. She, daugther of an Emperor, assumed the imperial rank when her husband Francis Stephen of Lorraine became Francis I, Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire.
But I have not read anything on her being Marie Therese I, Holy Roman Empress. Even when she, like Isabel of Castille, was the stronger part in the marriage.

[CrownPrinceLorenzo]

Originally Posted by srivishnu

Elizabeth from the House of Tudor is known as Elizabeth I not Elizabeth II.Male monarchs do have the regnal number if they choose to use the name of their predecessor as their official name such as George V and George VI.Even HRH Prince Charles of Wales has indicated that he plans to use George VII as his official name once he ascends the British throne upon the death of HM Queen Elizabeth II.But male consorts usually do not use the regnal number in their official name as they are not the monarch but female consorts is allowed to use the regnal number if they want to as they are the consort of the Head of State.

OMG what are you talking about?! I SAID ELIZABETH I IS ELIZABETH TUDOR. I said no such thing that Elizabeth Tudor was Elizabeth II. Re-read my posts please.

[CrownPrinceLorenzo]

Seriously though, many of you did not read my posts properly.

I DID NOT SAY ELIZABETH TUDOR WAS ELIZABETH II.

NOR DID I SAY ELIZABETH BOWLES-LYON, THE QUEEN MOTHER WAS ELIZABETH I.

I have no idea where you people got those. Jesus Christ...

[Toledo]

A simple misunderstanment, so many Elizabeths in here are becoming confused with one another.
Good that our Spanish Elizabeths use Spain's version of the name: Isabel. :)

[CrownPrinceLorenzo]

Even I was starting to get confused o_0

Anyway since King Juan Carlos is addressed as Juan Carlos I, with an ordinal, would Leonor be addressed Queen Leonor I (if she becomes Queen Regnant that is).

[Toledo]

my friend, I think the polite answer to that is that you just answered your own question.

And now I got to get going, everyone have a great weekend... :)

[CrownPrinceLorenzo]

But my original question was, if it's a male thing.

[Furienna]

It's mostly a male thing, but some sovreign queens have numbers too.

[Alexandria]

Originally Posted by CrownPrinceLorenzo

Seriously though, many of you did not read my posts properly.

I DID NOT SAY ELIZABETH TUDOR WAS ELIZABETH II.

NOR DID I SAY ELIZABETH BOWLES-LYON, THE QUEEN MOTHER WAS ELIZABETH I.

I have no idea where you people got those. Jesus Christ...

Let's just take a breather. There's no need to "yell" or use the Lord's name in vain, even if you are frustrated.

Sometimes posts are not read clearly enough or sometimes people misunderstand posts. Such confusion is to be expected when people are typing to a screen rather than talking face to face.

It's all a misunderstanding -- it's nothing to get into a complete tizzy about and to yell at each other for.

Alexandria
Royal Forums Administrator

[User0501]

Originally Posted by CrownPrinceLorenzo

OMG what are you talking about?! I SAID ELIZABETH I IS ELIZABETH TUDOR. I said no such thing that Elizabeth Tudor was Elizabeth II. Re-read my posts please.

In your earlier post you mentioned this "OMG, I already said I wasn't referring to Elizabeth Bowles-Lyon (Queen Mother) I said I was referring to Elizabeth Tudor (Elizabeth II).I asked if MONARCHS (males in particular) if they always ordinals. I know consorts(even male ones) do not have ordinals". Please read your post again carefully where you mentioned Elizabeth II in the brackets after Elizabeth Tudor as bolded in the above sentence taken from your post.

[User0501]

Originally Posted by Frothy

Warren... if you want to go back ::cue spooky music:: WAAAAAY back, then in ancient Egypt the Romanesque queens of the Pharoah had numbers; Cleopatra of 'Anthony and Cleopatra' fame was Cleopatra VII, it was the tradition that Pharaoh, usually called Ptolomey, would take a bride Cleopatra and both would take numerals. Cleopatra VII held the power of a dowager through her own cunning and because her husband the Pharaoh Ptolomey was dead. Other than that I don't know.

Edited to add: Srivishnu said:

"But male consorts usually do not use the regnal number in their official name as they are not the monarch but female consorts is allowed to use the regnal number if they want to as they are the consort of the Head of State."

I don't know who told you this but they misled you. Queen consorts in Britain never, and I mean never, use a regnal number; it is reserved for the Head of State, the monarch. William III and Mary II were techincal co-regnants.

Queen consorts in Britain never used a regnal number because they choose not to use them.

[Elspeth]

There's no reason for a person who isn't a monarch regnant to use a regnal number. It's not so much a matter of choice as a matter of irrelevance. A female consort is every bit as much a consort rather than a ruler as a male consort is.

[User0501]

Originally Posted by Elspeth

There's no reason for a person who isn't a monarch regnant to use a regnal number. It's not so much a matter of choice as a matter of irrelevance. A female consort is every bit as much a consort rather than a ruler as a male consort is.

None of the Queen consort in Britain used a regnal number as none of their official names were a repetition of their predecessors.

[Elspeth]

None of the queens consort in Britain used a regnal number because they weren't regnant.

You'll notice that regnal numbers among kings and queens regnant are used whether the immediately preceding king or queen had the same name as the following one or not. Therefore, the notion that regnal numbers would be used for successive consorts with the same name is absurd.

[Frothy]

srivishnu hi,

Your posts on this are incorrect; consorts in Britain are not permitted to use a regnal number. Consorts with the same name have happened to come one after the other (the term 'succeeded' would be inappropriate) and of course, regnal numbers were not used as they had no right to them. Eg: Matilda of Flanders, queen of the Conqueror; next queen consort, Matilda of Scotland, to Henry I. Eleanor of Castille (queen to Edward I) was immediately after Eleanor of Provence (queen to Henry III).

[Toledo]

Maybe this will help: Monarchical ordinal
and Monarchical Ordinals from Answers.com. Scroll down past the Wikipedia tie in referrence, next to the picture of the Pope John Paul I you get this quote:
As a rule of thumb, medieval European monarchs did not use ordinals at their own time, and those who used were rarities and even their use was sporadical.

Scroll down even further, next to the picture of Princess Grace Kelly there is another quote to help out:
...While reigning monarchs use ordinals, ordinals are not used for queens consort and princesses consort...The lack of an ordinal in the case of queens consort and princesses consort complicating the recording of history, as there may be a number of consorts over time with the same name with no way to distinguish between them. For that reason, royal consorts after their deaths are recorded in history books and encyclopaedias through the use of their maiden name or pre-marital name.

...or the place they came from, remember that last names/surnames (as we know them today) are like new invention/trend in the middle ages.
:) Hope the links helps to shed some light on this thread's subject :)