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  #481  
Old 03-16-2021, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maria-olivia View Post
The Belgian Kings are Member of the Austrian Order of the Golden Fleece.
King Albert II received the Spanish Order from King Juan Carlos during his State Visit.
They never wear the Order ??

King Albert II wore the collar of the Order of the Golden Fleece at the wedding of the Prince of Asturias and Doña Letizia Ortiz Rocasolano in 2014. You can see him with the collar of the Fleece (plus the sash and the grand cross of Carlos III) around 24:00 in the video below.


https://youtu.be/WgYJzGJhZ7o?t=1494


King Albert also wore the collar of the Order of the Seraphim at the wedding of the Crown Princess of Sweden and Mr Daniel Westling in 2010. You can see his collar of the Seraphim around 44:30 in the video below when he is leaving the church with Queen Paola. As far as I can tell, King Albert didn't wear any sash on that occasion. Queen Paola's art deco tiara is unfortunately barely visible in the video.


https://youtu.be/fzgYGWI5Flo?t=2666


Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
There are collars of the Leopoldsorde but after Baudouin the Kings stopped the use of it:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...rtius_Luik.jpg


The King wore a collar on his wedding day with Doña Fabiola de Mora y Aragón, that does not look alike the Leopoldsorde. I think the collar of the Orden Isabel la Católica.
https://gisterennogvandaag.files.wor...a.14.jpg?w=576


King Willem I (Sovereign over the three Benelux states) was given designs for collars for Orders for the new kingdom. But the King preferred simplicity and found the designs too ostentatious.

Collars are indeed ostentatious, but there aren't many of them, not least because the number of members with collars in orders that still have them is limited. Collars are also rarely worn these days (only occasionally in a few royal weddings, state dinners, or diplomatic receptions).


The United Kingdom is the only country in Europe AFAIK that still holds order chapters when collars are used (e.g. Garter Day) and, as you may have noticed, the Queen also wears the collar of the Order of the Garter at the State opening of Parliament. Wikipedia also has an extensive list of collar days for the different British orders throughout the year.


I personally think that collars are a great tradition and I would like to see them worn more often as they used to be in the Middle Ages and the early Modern Age (I know, it sounds terribly old-fashioned).
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  #482  
Old 03-16-2021, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
The following royal or dynastic orders (usually the highest or most prestigious in their respective countries) are awarded in a single grade of knight/lady or member by reigning monarchs (in chronological order):



Order of the Garter
Order of the Golden Fleece

Order of the Thistle
Order of the Elephant
Order of the Seraphim
Now that you mention it, have any of the European national or royal orders amended their regulations to the effect that women members may also bear the title of Knight (or in feminine form if applicable)?
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  #483  
Old 03-16-2021, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Now that you mention it, have any of the European national or royal orders amended their regulations to the effect that women members may also bear the title of Knight (or in feminine form if applicable)?

You would have to ask our friend Muhler, but I think the female members of the Order of the Elephant are called "knights". Likewise, I think the female Grand Crosses of the Order of the Netherlands Lion are also called Knights.


In the UK, the female members of the orders of the Garter and of the Thistle are called "Ladies" and the female holders of higher grades in other orders (Bath, MG, RVO, and BE) are called "Dames" (Grand Cross or Commander).

In Spain, modern order regulations generally avoid the words "Caballero" or "Dama" referring instead to grades like "Collar", "Gran Cruz", "Encomienda", "Cruz", etc. In the royal decrees awarding the order of the Golden Fleece, however, King Juan Carlos used the words "Vengo en nombrarle Caballero de la insigne Orden del Toisón de Oro" for men and "Vengo en concederle el Collar de la Insigne Orden del Toisón de Oro" for women, see Example 1 for King Harald V and Example 2 for Queen Elizabeth II . Princess Leonor's diploma, which could be seen briefly on the video of her induction ceremony, also referred to her being awarded "the Collar" of the Order of the Golden Fleece, with no reference to the words "Knight" or "Dame".


Likewise, in the Swedish Order of the Seraphim, Knight is used for men and Member is used for women or, in the past, members of the clergy.
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  #484  
Old 03-16-2021, 12:44 PM
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King Juan Carlos and Prince Felipe wore the short golden Collar of the Order of the Golden Fleece. King Albert II wore the larger Silver Collar of Isabella la C. second Collar wearing by King Juan Carlos.
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  #485  
Old 03-16-2021, 02:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maria-olivia View Post
King Juan Carlos and Prince Felipe wore the short golden Collar of the Order of the Golden Fleece. King Albert II wore the larger Silver Collar of Isabella la C. second Collar wearing by King Juan Carlos.

You may be right, but the Wikipedia doesn't list the Collar of the Order of Isabella the Catholic as one of the Spanish decorations held by King Albert II; it lists only the Collar of the Order of the Golden Fleece (awarded in 1994) and the Grand Cross of the Order of Carlos III (awarded in 1977). Based on that information and on the design of the collar itself as seen in the video, I am inclined to believe that it was indeed the Spanish Golden Fleece collar that King Albert II was wearing on that particular day.



You are also right that King Juan Carlos and the Prince of Asturias were both wearing the collar of the Order of the Golden Fleece at the wedding. I think, however, that the second collar worn by King Juan Carlos was the collar of the Order of Carlos III, rather than the collar of Isabella the Catholic. There is a close-up view of the two collars at the minute linked below in the video. Could other members confirm what collar that is?


https://youtu.be/WgYJzGJhZ7o?t=2215
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  #486  
Old 03-16-2021, 03:56 PM
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This thread is one of the most interesting of the Royal Forums.

Mbruno on post 50 our King Albert II wears the Sash of the Spanish Order of the Golden Fleece , He just received from King Juan Carlos during his State Visit in Belgium. He had already the Colar of the Austrian Order of the Golden Fleece.. But for his Wedding , He and his Father wore the Order of Malta. WHY ??
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  #487  
Old 03-16-2021, 06:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
You would have to ask our friend Muhler, but I think the female members of the Order of the Elephant are called "knights". Likewise, I think the female Grand Crosses of the Order of the Netherlands Lion are also called Knights.


In the UK, the female members of the orders of the Garter and of the Thistle are called "Ladies" and the female holders of higher grades in other orders (Bath, MG, RVO, and BE) are called "Dames" (Grand Cross or Commander).

In Spain, modern order regulations generally avoid the words "Caballero" or "Dama" referring instead to grades like "Collar", "Gran Cruz", "Encomienda", "Cruz", etc. In the royal decrees awarding the order of the Golden Fleece, however, King Juan Carlos used the words "Vengo en nombrarle Caballero de la insigne Orden del Toisón de Oro" for men and "Vengo en concederle el Collar de la Insigne Orden del Toisón de Oro" for women, see Example 1 for King Harald V and Example 2 for Queen Elizabeth II . Princess Leonor's diploma, which could be seen briefly on the video of her induction ceremony, also referred to her being awarded "the Collar" of the Order of the Golden Fleece, with no reference to the words "Knight" or "Dame".


Likewise, in the Swedish Order of the Seraphim, Knight is used for men and Member is used for women or, in the past, members of the clergy.
Thank you!

It appears to be a general rule that female members of Dutch chivalric orders are known as knights; the royal website references princesses becoming knights of the House Order of the Golden Lion of Nassau.

Spain appears to be playing coy with the question of how to refer to female members of orders.
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  #488  
Old 03-17-2021, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post





King Albert also wore the collar of the Order of the Seraphim at the wedding of the Crown Princess of Sweden and Mr Daniel Westling in 2010. You can see his collar of the Seraphim around 44:30 in the video below when he is leaving the church with Queen Paola. As far as I can tell, King Albert didn't wear any sash on that occasion. Queen Paola's art deco tiara is unfortunately barely visible in the video.


https://youtu.be/fzgYGWI5Flo?t=2666




.

Most attending reigning Kings (not sure about King Abullah) whore the Collar of the Order of the Serpahim at the swweish royal Wedding and only King Harald also wore the sahs of the order of St. Olav with it what hje also did at the ruby Jubilee of Queen margrethe in 2012. However at her Silver Jubilee in 1997 he only wore the Collar of the Order of the Elephant.
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  #489  
Old 03-17-2021, 01:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stefan View Post
Most attending reigning Kings (not sure about King Abullah) whore the Collar of the Order of the Serpahim at the swweish royal Wedding and only King Harald also wore the sahs of the order of St. Olav with it what hje also did at the ruby Jubilee of Queen margrethe in 2012. However at her Silver Jubilee in 1997 he only wore the Collar of the Order of the Elephant.

It is customary to wear the collar of a foreign order with the sash of a national order as King Harald did.



For example, Emperor Akhito in the clip below is wearing the collar of the order of the Golden Fleece with the Grand Cordon, I believe, of the Japanese order of the Chrysanthemum. Conversely, King Felipe VI is wearing the collar of the order of the Chrysanthemum with the sash of the collar of the Spanish order of Carlos III. He is also wearing the necklace insignia of the order of the Golden Fleece (as the King of Spain always does in formal occasions).








It is also possible, however, to use the collar and sash of the same order, although IMHO that is redundant. For example, in the clip below, the president of the Portuguese Republic, Senhor Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa, is wearing both the collar and the sash of the collar of the Spanish order of Carlos III. I am not very familiar with the Portuguese decorations, but I believe King Felipe VI is wearing the chain of the order of Liberty with the sash of the order of the Tower and the Sword, so he is not repeating two insignias of the same order.





In the final clip, President Martín Vizcarra of Peru is making the same "mistake" as the Portuguese president. In this case, he is wearing both the collar and the sash of the collar, I think, of the Spanish order of Isabella the Catholic. King Felipe VI again wears the medal (?) of the Order of the Sun of Peru with his own sash of the collar of the Spanish order of Carlos III. His Majesty is also wearing the bigger version of the Sovereign's necklace insignia of the Spanish Golden Fleece.







Note how the sash of the First Lady of Peru differs visibly from the President's, even though they are wearing the same order. That is because, unlike in British orders, Collar and Grand Cross are two separate grades in the Spanish orders and they have separate sashes with different designs (respectively the sash of the Grand Cross and the sash of the Collar). In addition, there are different sizes in practice for male (Knight's) and female (Dame's) sashes. That is described e.g. in Art.10 of the the latest regulations of the order of Isabella the Catholic .
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  #490  
Old 03-17-2021, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
It is customary to wear the collar of a foreign order with the sash of a national order as King Harald did.



For example, Emperor Akhito in the clip below is wearing the collar of the order of the Golden Fleece with the Grand Cordon, I believe, of the Japanese order of the Chrysanthemum. Conversely, King Felipe VI is wearing the collar of the order of the Chrysanthemum with the sash of the collar of the Spanish order of Carlos III. He is also wearing the necklace insignia of the order of the Golden Fleece (as the King of Spain always does in formal occasions).








It is also possible, however, to use the collar and sash of the same order, although IMHO that is redundant. For example, in the clip below, the president of the Portuguese Republic, Senhor Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa, is wearing both the collar and the sash of the collar of the Spanish order of Carlos III. I am not very familiar with the Portuguese decorations, but I believe King Felipe VI is wearing the chain of the order of Liberty with the sash of the order of the Tower and the Sword, so he is not repeating two insignias of the same order.





In the final clip, President Martín Vizcarra of Peru is making the same "mistake" as the Portuguese president. In this case, he is wearing both the collar and the sash of the collar, I think, of the Spanish order of Isabella the Catholic. King Felipe VI again wears the medal (?) of the Order of the Sun of Peru with his own sash of the collar of the Spanish order of Carlos III. His Majesty is also wearing the bigger version of the Sovereign's necklace insignia of the Spanish Golden Fleece.







Note how the sash of the First Lady of Peru differs visibly from the President's, even though they are wearing the same order. That is because, unlike in British orders, Collar and Grand Cross are two separate grades in the Spanish orders and they have separate sashes with different designs (respectively the sash of the Grand Cross and the sash of the Collar). In addition, there are different sizes in practice for male (Knight's) and female (Dame's) sashes. That is described e.g. in Art.10 of the the latest regulations of the order of Isabella the Catholic .

So why was King Harald the only one who did it at the swedish Royal Wedding. And why did he wear with the sash in Denmark in 2012 but without in 1997?
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  #491  
Old 03-17-2021, 05:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stefan View Post
So why was King Harald the only one who did it at the swedish Royal Wedding. And why did he wear with the sash in Denmark in 2012 but without in 1997?

I guess it is optional. Either you wear a collar only, as King Albert II did in Sweden, or you wear the collar of an order with the sash of another, as King Albert II did in Spain and King Harald V did in Sweden. Both are correct.



What I think is not so correct, or at least would be illogical, is to wear the collar and the sash of the same order at the same time as the presidents of Peru and Portugal did on those clips. That is because, for the order grades whose insignia includes both a sash and a collar, the sash is meant to be worn specifically on those occasions when the collar is not required by protocol. The regulations of the Spanish orders actually explain that point, e.g., in the regulations of the order of Carlos III:


Quote:
3.º Gran Cruz del Collar: las personas que estén en posesión del Collar podrán usar, en actos cuyo ceremonial no requiera ostentar el mismo, una Gran Cruz cuyas características se describen a continuación:


Será una banda de seda, de 101 milímetros de ancho, de color azul celeste, con dos franjas blancas, de seis milímetros de ancho, que corren paralelas a cuatro milímetros del borde de la cinta. Dicha banda se unirá en sus extremos mediante un rosetón picado, confeccionado con la misma tela que la banda, del cual penderá la venera de la Real Orden, cuyas dimensiones máximas serán de 50 por 75 milímetros. [...]
As I mentioned before, in the UK, where all orders of knighthood still have collars, there seem to be clear rules on when collars are required or not. For example, collars are worn at the annual services/installation ceremonies of the Garter and the Thistle, at coronations, or at the State Opening of Parliament, and the Chancery of the Royal Orders of Knighthood has a list of designated "collar days" when collars may be worn. However, collars like the collar of the Garter are not expected to be worn for example at a state dinner, in which case only the standard Grand Cross with the sash and star would be appropriate.

To be fair though, Queen Elizabeth II herself also wears foreign collars at state banquets. In the clip below, for example, she is wearing the collar of the Brazilian order of the Southern Cross (originally an Imperial order, now awarded by the Republic). But note that she was NOT wearing the collar of the Southern Cross with the corresponding sash, and neither was Queen Margrethe II of Denmark in the following clip. Both were correct again in my opinion.






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  #492  
Old 04-08-2021, 09:05 AM
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Most Exclusive Royal Orders of Knighthood

For comparison purposes, only single-grade orders were considered. The figures below are from different Wikipedia sources and, although they may be not exact, they are roughly correct. In the list, the term "knight" refers both to male and female members and also includes Royal Family and foreign members .


1. Order of the Garter (since 1348): 1,014 knights (English Wikipedia); average: 1.50 knight/year.

2. Order of the Elephant (since 1580): 860 knights (Danish Wikipedia); average: 1.95 knight/year.

3. Order of the Golden Fleece, Spanish branch (since 1430): 1,199 (French Wikipedia) or 1,201 (English Wikipedia) knights; average: 2.03 knights/ year.

4. Order of the Seraphim (since 1748): 883 knights; average: 3.2 knights/ year.


Notes


a) The first statutes of the Order of the Elephant date back to 1693 only, which is the official date of inception of the order. However, the Danish Wikipedia counts knights from the reign of Christian I in the 16th century, including members of the Fellowship of the Mother of God, which predated the Order of the Elephant. I chose to count knights only from 1580, when, according to the Danish Wikipedia, it is known for sure that a badge in the form of an elephant was awarded by King Frederik II to new knights.


b) From 1711 onwards, the Order of the Golden Fleece split into a Spanish branch under the Bourbon kings of Spain and an Austrian branch under the head of the House of Habsburg, later Habsburg-Lorraine. The figure shown above includes all knights appointed in the original Burgundian order (1430-1516) plus the knights appointed by kings or regents of Spain from 1516 to the present. Knights of the Austrian branch appointed after 1711 were not counted.

c) It would be interesting to add to the list the figures for the Order of the Thistle (the English Wikipedia has a list of only 248 knights since 1687, which is probably incomplete) and for the Supreme Order of the Most Holy Annunciation (Ordine Supremo della Santissima Annunziata) of the House of Savoy, and the Supreme Order of Christ awarded by the Pope (probably the most exclusive of the "grand orders").
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