Non-British Styles and Titles


If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
sesa said:
Just because her husband died does not mean that she is demoted to a lower rank of Princess. She is still a queen in her own right since she was married to the King. Just like when commoners are married and the spouse dies, they are still known as "Mrs." Whatever. They do not revert back to Ms. or Miss because they are not single. They are widowed, hence keeping the "Mrs." .

Does anyone know what Dutch dowager queens consort are called (it's been so long since there was one!). Unlike other European monarchies, the Netherlands has a tradition of abdication and I know that Queen Juliana reverted to the title of princess after her daughter Beatrix became queen. If Willem-Alexander assumes the throne and pre-deceases Maxima, will she continue to be referred to as Queen when her daughter assumes the throne? If Willem-Alexander abdicates the throne at a certain age (like his grandmother), will he and Maxima revert to the style of prince and princess? I imagine they couldn't revert to the Prince and Princess of Orange titles, since those titles will be for Catherina-Amalia's eldest. Any thoughts?
 
There are no rules about it. Juliana and Wilhelmina chose the title of Princess, though technically they could have kept the title 'Queen' (like the abdicated King Leopold of Belgium). As the ladies were pragmatic they thought it would only create confusion.
It is not know if WA and Maxima will revert to prince and princess after a possible abdication, there re no fixd rules for that, though it is expected as there is a precedent. They will not revert to the prince of Orange as that title is for the heir.
Now, it is still unclear if Maxima will be styled as Queen. The gouverment did not want to decide about this when the couple married but members of parliament were making remarks that it was odd that the consort of a Queen is a prince and the consort of a King is a Queen. Some people wanted to get equal rules for this as well. But this is something for the (not to far) future.
 
Thanks, Marengo - very interesting! Another example of the Dutch always striving to do the right thing - I love it.
 
Warren said:
I trust the subject of Diana is not going to take over this thread.

Here is Ysbel's original question:

Are there any other royal divorces where the wife kept the title or gave it up?

W

it's hard not for Diana to take over this thread since hers was the spectacular and most publicized divorce. Most royal divorces were kept quiet before hers. Thanks for reminding us of the original question :)

Royal titles are like normal common titles. If a woman divorces her husband and doesn't legally change back to her maiden name, she would be known as Mrs. Mary Smith. A good example is Camilla. She never changed her name back to Camilla Shand so she was always known as Mrs. Camilla Parker-Bowles.
 
Jo of Palatine said:
The idea of being "commoner" is in the UK much stricter than in other countries with a monarchy. While in most countries the whole family of an aristocrat is considered "noble", in the UK only the head of the family is a "peer", all the others are "commoners".

The daughters take their "Precedence" - that is their social position - from their father. Daughters are thus ranked higher than second sons. That's why the daughter of an earl is styled "Lady", but a second brother would only be "The Honorable Mr."

When daughters marry a man higher in rank, they share his place in the order of precedence and take on his name.

Eg. The ficticious Lady Carina Plum, daughter of the earl of Marmelade marries the earl of Jam. Now she is The Countess of Jam, called Lady Jam.

Lady Carina married the brother of Lord Jam, the Honorable Mr. Keith
Cherry. Now she would be Lady Carina Cherry while he stays Mr. Keith Cherry.

Lady Carina marries Mr. Nobody. Then she is Lady Carina Nobody.

Lady Carina marries Lord Edward Apricot, second son of the duke of Jelly who is higher in rank than her. Now she is Lady Edward Apricot.

If Lady Carina was the daughter of a duke herself, her rank would be higher than Lord Edward's (because she shares her father's rank who is a peer). Now she could decide if she wanted to become The Lady Edward or stay The Lady Carina. She would have to take into account which dukedom was older - that of her father of that of Jelly.

On becoming Lord Jams widow she would still be the Countess of Jam if the next earl was not yet married. If her son is the next earl of Jam and is already married, she would be "The Dowager Countess of Jam". If the next earl was the son from her late husband's first marriage, she would be Carina, countess of Jam, but still be called Lady Jam. She would still be considered a countess in the order of precedence.

The last thing applies to divorcees as well. Except that they loose the precedence they shared with their husbands. Thus both Diana and Fergie lost the HRH-style, because they never were "Royal Highnesses" in their own right, but only sharing their husband's Royal Titles. They used the widow's "name" from then on: Diana, Princess of Wales and Sarah, Duchess of York. If Charles had died while Diana was still married to him, Prince William would have advanced to the title "The Prince of Wales". Diana would have been "The Dowager Princess of Wales" on keeping her HRH-style.

After her divorce, Diana could have gone back to her old title of "Lady" IIRC. She was correctly Lady Diana Mountbatten-Windsor, princess of Wales. In short Diana Wales. To avoid any problems, people were asked to address her as "Madam", which is an address that can be used with any lady of higher rank. Sarah Mountbatten-Windsor had no own style from her father, she is Mrs. Sarah Mountbatten-Windsor, duchess of York.

In my opinion the queen should have done something about that, maybe make Sarah into a "dame" at least or give her her own title as Lady Something... Queen Beatrix was more careful: she made her new daughter-in-law Maxima into a "Princess of the Netherlands, Princess of Orange" in her own right, along with the style HRH. So even if The Prince of Orange divorced Princess Maxima, she still would be HRH Princess Maxima of the Netherlands.

Hope I recall all that correctly from a list where "precedence" was widely discussed...

I love the edible examples :) Well done :)
 
CrownPrinceLorenzo said:
So does that mean HDSH is lower than HH? And HIllH is lowest?
More or less so, but HDSH fell out of favour a long time ago (so much so it rarely appears even in the genealogies). HIllH is the lowest because it is a Mediatised Comital style, and Counts rank below Princes. Although, to confuse the issue, the heads of some Comital Houses are Princes with the style of HSH.

Be careful not to place a person's ranking on their style. Even today a Serene Highness can rank higher than an Imperial and Royal Highness; eg Prince Albert II and Prince Hans Adam rank higher than an average Archduke because they are reigning monarchs. Similarly, HSH Hereditary Prince Alois of Liechtenstein ranks higher than HRH The Duke of York because Alois is a Crown Prince and Andrew isn't.

I remember seeing a documentary many years ago on the late Prince of Thurn und Taxis where he had a large dinner party. His head butler had quite a chore in ranking all the guests in the correct order of precedence, and the seating plan was upset with the arrival of two unexpected guests. In the old Austria-Germany the ranking of guests would have occupied a great deal of time and care to ensure no errors were made nor offense caused.
 
Yes (with a but). HIllH is the lowest of those styles, but by no means the lowest of styles available (particularly in the Peerage of the United Kingdom).
 
Warren said:
More or less so, but HDSH fell out of favour a long time ago (so much so it rarely appears even in the genealogies). HIllH is the lowest because it is a Mediatised Comital style, and Counts rank below Princes. Although, to confuse the issue, the heads of some Comital Houses are Princes with the style of HSH.

Be careful not to place a person's ranking on their style. Even today a Serene Highness can rank higher than an Imperial and Royal Highness; eg Prince Albert II and Prince Hans Adam rank higher than an average Archduke because they are reigning monarchs. Similarly, HSH Hereditary Prince Alois of Liechtenstein ranks higher than HRH The Duke of York because Alois is a Crown Prince and Andrew isn't.

I remember seeing a documentary many years ago on the late Prince of Thurn und Taxis where he had a large dinner party. His head butler had quite a chore in ranking all the guests in the correct order of precedence, and the seating plan was upset with the arrival of two unexpected guests. In the old Austria-Germany the ranking of guests would have occupied a great deal of time and care to ensure no errors were made nor offense caused.

I pity the poor head butler. I saw a documentary of HMEII and a year in her life, there was a similar banquet dinner and the butler had similar problems. I'm glad i don't hve to give such dinner parties!
 
Interesting thread. From what I read, a Sovereign anything (Prince or Grand Duke) outranks another person with a similar title that is not a head of state himself or herself. The Grand Dukes of Luxemburg outrank any Russian or German Grand Duke. I'll see if I can find you the sites:
History of Nobility

Ranks of Nobility


:) Found it! One of my favorite places to learn these complicated details:
A Glossary of European[SIZE=+2]Noble, Princely, Royal, and Imperial Titles. Section # 5 and 5.2 refer to ruling titles[/SIZE]
 
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Okay guys.

So it goes, assuming they all have the same titles, HIH > HGDH > HRH > HSH > HH > HDSH > HIllH?

How do you address non-UK Barons? Or reigning Barons?

Thanks for the links Toledo.
 
Your welcome.
PS. at the bottom of the Heraldica site, the third one I posted, is the email of one of the best online authorities in all things titled. I suggest you to consider using it and let us know the results. I'm sure he will be very deligthed for the interest. Plus, I wonder if he is one of the members in here, if not, he could join in and give us a nice lecture on titles.
 
CrownPrinceLorenzo said:
How do you address non-UK Barons? Or reigning Barons?
Under the Holy Roman Empire (Habsburg hereditary territories and the German States) there were no "reigning Barons". After 1815 there were only reigning Emperors, Kings, Grand Dukes, Dukes, one Elector aka Landgrave (Hesse-Kassel), and Princes.

Prior to 1582 the Imperial States of the Empire consisted of the "Old Princes". "New Princes" were subsequently admitted, and from 1641 "Princes of the Empire" were created together with the "Councils of the Counts of the Empire". No-one below a Count held sovereignty. Sovereign Counts who lost the right to rule at the Congress of Vienna in 1815 joined the ranks of the Mediatised Houses. Barons didn't get a look-in.
 
Toledo said:
Your welcome.
PS. at the bottom of the Heraldica site, the third one I posted, is the email of one of the best online authorities in all things titled. I suggest you to consider using it and let us know the results. I'm sure he will be very deligthed for the interest. Plus, I wonder if he is one of the members in here, if not, he could join in and give us a nice lecture on titles.

Thanks ^_^ I emailed him.

Warren said:
Under the Holy Roman Empire (Habsburg hereditary territories and the German States) there were no "reigning Barons". After 1815 there were only reigning Emperors, Kings, Grand Dukes, Dukes, one Elector aka Landgrave (Hesse-Kassel), and Princes.

Prior to 1582 the Imperial States of the Empire consisted of the "Old Princes". "New Princes" were subsequently admitted, and from 1641 "Princes of the Empire" were created together with the "Councils of the Counts of the Empire". No-one below a Count held sovereignty. Sovereign Counts who lost the right to rule at the Congress of Vienna in 1815 joined the ranks of the Mediatised Houses. Barons didn't get a look-in.

So the description of a Baron being ruler of a Barony is just theoritical?
 
please let us know if he responds.
 
Crown Prince Lorenzo said:
So the description of a Baron being ruler of a Barony is just theoritical?
You're going medieval. My reply dealt with the HRE from the C16th where only the Imperial Princes, and later Counts, were ruling sovereigns under the Emperor.
 
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Toledo said:
please let us know if he responds.

Bad news Toledo. The email returned to me. I guess he doesn't have that email anymore. :(

Warren said:
You're going medieval. My reply dealt with the HRE from the C16th where only the Imperial Princes, and later Counts, were ruling sovereigns under the Emperor.

Ah okay. How were medieval Barons addressed then? Also if a reigning Duke has a son, would he be called a Prince?
 
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CrownPrinceLorenzo said:
Ah okay. How were medieval Barons addressed then? Also if a reigning Duke has a son, would he be called a Prince?
Medieval Barons would probably by addressed as "My Lord" or the equivalent in German. Styles weren't as developed in that age as they later became.

The titles of the sons of the reigning Dukes varied.
The heir of the Dukes of Anhalt was Hereditary Prince of Anhalt; other sons were Princes of Anhalt.
Similary with the Dukes of Saxe-Coburg & Gotha, except that members of the family also bore the title of Duke (or Duchess) of Saxony.
The eldest son of the Grand Duke of Saxe-Weimar-Eisenach was the Hereditary Grand Duke, other sons had the title of Prince of Saxe-Weimar-Eisenach, Duke of Saxony;
whereas sons other than the heirs of the Grand Dukes of Mecklenburg-Schwerin and Mecklenburg-Strelitz were Dukes of Mecklenburg.

To confuse the issue further, sons of the Royal House of the Kingdom of Württemberg were (are) Dukes of Württemberg, and not Princes of Württemberg.
 
CrownPrinceLorenzo said:
Okay guys.

So it goes, assuming they all have the same titles, HIH > HGDH > HRH > HSH > HH > HDSH > HIllH?

How do you address non-UK Barons? Or reigning Barons?

Thanks for the links Toledo.

isn't HRH higher than HGDH
 
Warren said:
Medieval Barons would probably by addressed as "My Lord" or the equivalent in German. Styles weren't as developed in that age as they later became.

The titles of the sons of the reigning Dukes varied.
The heir of the Dukes of Anhalt was Hereditary Prince of Anhalt; other sons were Princes of Anhalt.
Similary with the Dukes of Saxe-Coburg & Gotha, except that members of the family also bore the title of Duke (or Duchess) of Saxony.
The eldest son of the Grand Duke of Saxe-Weimar-Eisenach was the Hereditary Grand Duke, other sons had the title of Prince of Saxe-Weimar-Eisenach, Duke of Saxony;
whereas sons other than the heirs of the Grand Dukes of Mecklenburg-Schwerin and Mecklenburg-Strelitz were Dukes of Mecklenburg.

To confuse the issue further, sons of the Royal House of the Kingdom of Württemberg were (are) Dukes of Württemberg, and not Princes of Württemberg.

That is quite the confusion alright. How about His Grace? Where does that fall in?
Princess Robijn said:
isn't HRH higher than HGDH

I'm not sure. I was hoping the guys/gals can clear it up. But I think you're right. HRH is higher than HGDH
 
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Order

The Correct order for Titles is:

Your Imperial Majesty (an emperor or empress)
Your Majesty ( A King or Queen)
Your Serene Majesty (Not currently in use)
Your Imperial Highness
Your Royal and Imperial Highness (certain Royal Highnesses who have married an Austrian Royal and adopted his title while retaining their own title at the same time.)
Your Royal Highness
Your Serene Highness
Your Grand Ducal Highness (currently not used by any reigning Royal/Grand Ducal Family)
Your Highness (minor royals and some Commonwealth soveriegns, emirs etc)
Your Grace (Not A Royal Title, used by Dukes of Non-Royal Blood and Certain Religious officials, eg His Grace the Archbishop of Canterbury)

The Title of Grand Ducal Highness was used in Luxemburg in the past but has fallen out of use.
Hope this makes sense
 
Order of Precedence

It is to be noted that one should be careful when using the order of titles not to assume that ones title determines the order of precedence,

An emperor, King, Queen and Reigning Prince and Grand Duke all count as Sovereigns and should be ranked according to the Date of their accession not by their Title, likewise their family should be ranked according to thier relation to the Sovereign.

EG HM The Queen AND HSH Prince Albert II are of an Equal rank and do not bow or curtsey to each other,

The Princess Royal (HRH) however would be expected to curtsey to Albert II (HSH) even though his title is of a lesser rank than hers.

And HSH The Grand Duchess of Luxemburg would not be expected to Curtsey to The Prince of Wales (HRH) but he would be expected to bow (nod at least) to Her.

The King and Queen of Greece and The King and Queen of Romania are also still granted the Title of Majesty and bowed and curtseyed to by all nonSovereign Royals. Their Families are also addressed as HRH
 
RoyalProtocol said:
The Title of Grand Ducal Highness was used in Luxemburg in the past but has fallen out of use.
Hope this makes sense

Wasn't it because Grand Duchess Charlotte's consort was a Royal Prince?
 
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Thanks

Thanks RoyalProtocol.

Just a recap.

HIM > HM > HIH > HRH > HSH > HGDH > HH > HDSH > HIllH

Is that right?
 
RoyalProtocol said:
The Correct order for Titles is:

Your Imperial Majesty (an emperor or empress)
Your Majesty ( A King or Queen)
Your Serene Majesty (Not currently in use)
Your Imperial Highness
Your Royal and Imperial Highness (certain Royal Highnesses who have married an Austrian Royal and adopted his title while retaining their own title at the same time.)
Your Royal Highness
Your Serene Highness
Your Grand Ducal Highness (currently not used by any reigning Royal/Grand Ducal Family)
Your Highness (minor royals and some Commonwealth soveriegns, emirs etc)
Your Grace (Not A Royal Title, used by Dukes of Non-Royal Blood and Certain Religious officials, eg His Grace the Archbishop of Canterbury)

The Title of Grand Ducal Highness was used in Luxemburg in the past but has fallen out of use.
Hope this makes sense

Thank you :) :) :)
 
RoyalProtocol said:
It is to be noted that one should be careful when using the order of titles not to assume that ones title determines the order of precedence,

An emperor, King, Queen and Reigning Prince and Grand Duke all count as Sovereigns and should be ranked according to the Date of their accession not by their Title, likewise their family should be ranked according to thier relation to the Sovereign.

EG HM The Queen AND HSH Prince Albert II are of an Equal rank and do not bow or curtsey to each other,

The Princess Royal (HRH) however would be expected to curtsey to Albert II (HSH) even though his title is of a lesser rank than hers.

And HSH The Grand Duchess of Luxemburg would not be expected to Curtsey to The Prince of Wales (HRH) but he would be expected to bow (nod at least) to Her.

The King and Queen of Greece and The King and Queen of Romania are also still granted the Title of Majesty and bowed and curtseyed to by all nonSovereign Royals. Their Families are also addressed as HRH

Isn't it HRH The Grand Duchess of Luxemburg (because of their Bourbon-Parma title)
 
Hrh

Yes of course its HRH The Grand Duchess of Luxemburg, this was a typo, sorry.
 
Correct

CrownPrinceLorenzo said:
Thanks RoyalProtocol.

Just a recap.

HIM > HM > HIH > HRH > HSH > HGDH > HH > HDSH > HIllH

Is that right?

Yes thats right, can you explain HIllH I haven't seen this one before.
 
RoyalProtocol said:
Yes of course its HRH The Grand Duchess of Luxemburg, this was a typo, sorry.

ok.. I didn't realize that.. srry..
 
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