Non-British Styles and Titles

[auntie]

I just realized something, if the Duke of York becomes King (as in George V, George VI) does the title revert to the crown ? or is he also HM King so and so, Duke of York (just as many royals have several titles)

 

[Paula**]

Is time to Queen and King stay in the same level
that is just so sexist, so old ... Is stupid

 

[Mapple]

If the title is available, they are awarded that title. ...

Not necessarily, the second son of Queen Victoria was created Duke of Edinburgh.

I just realized something, if the Duke of York becomes King (as in George V, George VI) does the title revert to the crown ? or is he also HM King so and so, Duke of York (just as many royals have several titles)

The title merges into the Crown and 'disappears'. A monarch cannot hold a peerage dignity from himself.

 

[auntie]

Not necessarily, the second son of Queen Victoria was created Duke of Edinburgh.

Why didn't she give the title to her 2nd son? is it because she wanted to bestow him the title of Duke of Sax Coburg and Gotha? can the title of duke of York be given to anyone but the 2nd son?

 

[Josefine]

Princess Ingrid of Sweden married Crown Prince Frederik of Denmark, and became Crown Princess Ingrid of Denmark.

was she not still princess of sweden

 

[purple_platinum]

i know this sound like a ridiculous question...
but if Prince Andrew of Great Britain marry Infanta Cristina of Spain...
will Cristina become HRH Infanta Cristina, Duchess of York, Duchess of Palma de Mallorca? and will Prince Andrew will become HRH Prince Andrew, Duke of York, Duke of Palma de Mallorca?
thus both of them have title from the spouses' countries?

 

[Warren]

i know this sound like a ridiculous question...
but if Prince Andrew of Great Britain marry Infanta Cristina of Spain...
will Cristina become HRH Infanta Cristina, Duchess of York, Duchess of Palma de Mallorca? and will Prince Andrew will become HRH Prince Andrew, Duke of York, Duke of Palma de Mallorca?
thus both of them have title from the spouses' countries?

Prince Andrew would remain HRH the Duke of York and the Infanta would become HRH the Duchess of York.

 

[ysbel]

was she not still princess of sweden

I've heard of Ingrid referred to as Ingrid, Princess of Sweden, Queen of Denmark. I've also heard her referred to simply as Ingrid of Sweden, Queen of Denmark but I don't know if these titles are official.

 

[norwegianne]

I've heard of Ingrid referred to as Ingrid, Princess of Sweden, Queen of Denmark. I've also heard her referred to simply as Ingrid of Sweden, Queen of Denmark but I don't know if these titles are official.

On the royal Danish webpage they refer to her as: Queen Ingrid, born Princess of Sweden, in Queen Margrethe's profile.

It has been traditional that females marrying males, take their last names/titles, and forgo their maiden names. (Or males do it, as the case with Prince Henrik.)

 

[Toledo]

Before I log off, here is the link for one of the best sites that explains the use of titles. Scroll down to items # 7 and # 8 for the part on the Princes
http://www.heraldica.org/topics/odegard/titlefaq.htm

 

[ysbel]

Thanks Anne and toledo. Toledo I spent ages looking at that site. What a find. I only wish there was more info on the Scandanavian countries.

 

[michelleq]

How do the German Royal/Princely Families handle this scenario? If a woman marries a German Prince (HRH/HSH/HH) what title do they assume?

 

[Warren]

How do the German Royal/Princely Families handle this scenario? If a woman marries a German Prince (HRH/HSH/HH) what title do they assume?

Some examples:
HSH Princess Caroline of Monaco married HRH Prince Ernst August of Hanover (aka HRH The Prince of Hanover) and became HRH Princess Caroline of Hanover, alternatively HRH The Princess of Hanover.

HRH Princess Bendikte of Denmark married HSH Prince Richard of Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg and became HRH Princess Benedikte of S-W-B.

HSH Princess Marie of Wied married HRH Friedrich, Hereditary Duke of Württemberg and became HRH The Hereditary Duchess of Württemberg.

 

[michelleq]

Some examples:
HSH Princess Caroline of Monaco married HRH Prince Ernst August of Hanover (aka HRH The Prince of Hanover) and became HRH Princess Caroline of Hanover, alternatively HRH The Princess of Hanover.

HRH Princess Bendikte of Denmark married HSH Prince Richard of Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg and became HRH Princess Benedikte of S-W-B.

HSH Princess Marie of Wied married HRH Friedrich, Hereditary Duke of Württemberg and became HRH The Hereditary Duchess of Württemberg.

Thank you Warren. All of the above were Princesses in their own right; does the same rule apply to Nobility, Aristocracy and/or Commoners who marry Princes?

 

[Toledo]

Thanks Anne and toledo. Toledo I spent ages looking at that site. What a find. I only wish there was more info on the Scandanavian countries.

Your welcome
I have this thing for tracking down the most unusual sites around everytime I have a question in my head about a particular royalty related subject. From maps to data only us, web amateur royal historians, will find interesting. And we are all in here historians in some shape or form. We want to know more and know the why on these fascinating group of families that have forged the world we live in.

One of the best small books around related to the origins of Royalty and the wording, the titles etc is how the king became his majesty or some title in those lines. I can't find where I put my copy nor can track it down in google to get a link (because I can't remember the exact title ). But is a great book on the origin of words that are used to refer to royal titles.

But back to that great site, this section here has even more interesting information on the use of 'highness' and styles: http://www.heraldica.org/topics/royalty/highness.htm

and this page is about Royal Styles

 

[Lady Jennifer]

i know this sound like a ridiculous question...
but if Prince Andrew of Great Britain marry Infanta Cristina of Spain...
will Cristina become HRH Infanta Cristina, Duchess of York, Duchess of Palma de Mallorca? and will Prince Andrew will become HRH Prince Andrew, Duke of York, Duke of Palma de Mallorca?
thus both of them have title from the spouses' countries?

Well something like that happened when Princess Astrid of Belgium married Lorenz, Archduke of Austria-Este. He was made a Prince of Belgium in 1995. Their children: His children bear the titles "Prince(ss) of Belgium, Prince(ss) Imperial and Archduke(Archduchess) of Austria-Este, Prince(ss) Royal of Hungary and Bohemia".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Lorenz_of_Belgium
In this case he took her title as well....a few years after marriage but he took it just the same

 

[Toledo]

Well something like that happened when Princess Astrid of Belgium married Lorenz, Archduke of Austria-Este. He was made a Prince of Belgium in 1995. Their children: His children bear the titles "Prince(ss) of Belgium, Prince(ss) Imperial and Archduke(Archduchess) of Austria-Este, Prince(ss) Royal of Hungary and Bohemia".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Lorenz_of_Belgium
In this case he took her title as well....a few years after marriage but he took it just the same

That brings the question in my mind if an established Royal family has more pull than a deposed Royal family when is referred to titles. Anyone knows if the titles and styles of a current royal are priority over a deposed royal clan's titles?
That also brings to mind Caroline of Monaco, she was upgraded (sorry, I'm too much into computer terms) from Serene to Royal when she married a member of a Royal family deposed over 150 years ago or so. Anyone knows if Ernst is also entitled to use Caroline's Serene Highness too? After all, she is the undeclared (?) Crown Princess of Monaco while his Kingdom no longer exists on maps as it was.

 

[Warren]

That brings the question in my mind if an established Royal family has more pull than a deposed Royal family when is referred to titles. Anyone knows if the titles and styles of a current royal are priority over a deposed royal clan's titles?
That also brings to mind Caroline of Monaco, she was upgraded (sorry, I'm too much into computer terms) from Serene to Royal when she married a member of a Royal family deposed over 150 years ago or so. Anyone knows if Ernst is also entitled to use Caroline's Serene Highness too? After all, she is the undeclared (?) Crown Princess of Monaco while his Kingdom no longer exists on maps as it was.

The Royal and Princely clans form a caste unto themselves. Whether or not we acknowledge their titles, styles and rankings, they do. So a member of a Royal House, whether reigning or not, will still be acknowledged within the Gotha as Royal.

A female Serene Highness marrying a Royal Highness will take her husband's style and rank; the Royal Highness will not be downgraded or take his wife's style. A person can be 'Imperial and Royal', but not 'Royal and Serene'.

In the case of Archduke Lorenz he did not so much take his wife's title as be granted the title of Prince of Belgium in his own right in 1995. His and Astrids' children were created Princes and Princesses of Belgium before their father in 1991. This was more a case of ensuring the continuation of the dynasty with a Plan B in the event that Crown Prince Philippe did not marry and Astrid's eldest son (or other sibling) would eventually succeed to the throne.

Regarding wives taking husband's titles, Lea Wolman on marrying Prince Alexandre of Belgium became HRH Princess Alexandre of Belgium. Claire Coombs is now HRH Princess Claire of Belgium (and not Princess Laurent) because she was granted the title of Princess, HRH, by Royal Decree of the King on the day of her wedding.

In the UK Princess Michael of Kent is not Princess Marie Christine because she has no title in her own right (apart from baroness). However, for the German Royal and Princely families the convention seems to be that the wife (from commoner to Countess etc) will take her husband's title but retain her first name. But of course there are exceptions (eg Prince and Princess Georg of Hanover) so there are no hard and fast rules.

 

[Aussie Princess]

In places like Spain, Norway and Denmark, their heir to the throne is the Crown Prince/Princess I was jusyt wondering why Charles isn't known as the Crown Prince of the United Kingdom or something? why only Wales, and why not a a Crown Prince?

 

[ysbel]

The Prince of Wales was originally the ruler of Wales in the early Middle Ages. Edward I defeated him and conquered Wales then gave the title to his infant son. At the time it was mainly to keep anyone else from claiming the title and challenging his sovereignity of Wales but later Princes of Wales did spend some of their king-training in Wales.

Catherine of Aragon accompanied her first husband, Arthur, Prince of Wales, to a six-month long stint as lord and lady of the Welsh court. Arthur decided small cases in the court but the weather in Wales was too harsh for his constitution. He caught cold and later died.

 

[Jo of Palatine]

I think it makes sense as well.

For everything that had happened during the divorce, the one thing that made sense to me is why and how COULD SHE KEEP the HRH, when in fact it was only a part of the title for the duration of her marriage and if she became a widow.

I could see her keeping her title but it made sense not to be able to use HRH.

I just thought of something.

Princess Michael could also go back to her title of Baroness as that is what she was before she married.

But knowing her...she would keep the Princess title....

I know I would...

So, when the Dukes of the Blood Royal die and their sons inherit their titles of Duke of Gloucester and Kent, that means they will be addressed as Your Grace, taking the style and rank of a Duke in the peerage, as the sons are not HRH.

The idea of being "commoner" is in the UK much stricter than in other countries with a monarchy. While in most countries the whole family of an aristocrat is considered "noble", in the UK only the head of the family is a "peer", all the others are "commoners".

The daughters take their "Precedence" - that is their social position - from their father. Daughters are thus ranked higher than second sons. That's why the daughter of an earl is styled "Lady", but a second brother would only be "The Honorable Mr."

When daughters marry a man higher in rank, they share his place in the order of precedence and take on his name.

Eg. The ficticious Lady Carina Plum, daughter of the earl of Marmelade marries the earl of Jam. Now she is The Countess of Jam, called Lady Jam.

Lady Carina married the brother of Lord Jam, the Honorable Mr. Keith
Cherry. Now she would be Lady Carina Cherry while he stays Mr. Keith Cherry.

Lady Carina marries Mr. Nobody. Then she is Lady Carina Nobody.

Lady Carina marries Lord Edward Apricot, second son of the duke of Jelly who is higher in rank than her. Now she is Lady Edward Apricot.

If Lady Carina was the daughter of a duke herself, her rank would be higher than Lord Edward's (because she shares her father's rank who is a peer). Now she could decide if she wanted to become The Lady Edward or stay The Lady Carina. She would have to take into account which dukedom was older - that of her father of that of Jelly.

On becoming Lord Jams widow she would still be the Countess of Jam if the next earl was not yet married. If her son is the next earl of Jam and is already married, she would be "The Dowager Countess of Jam". If the next earl was the son from her late husband's first marriage, she would be Carina, countess of Jam, but still be called Lady Jam. She would still be considered a countess in the order of precedence.

The last thing applies to divorcees as well. Except that they loose the precedence they shared with their husbands. Thus both Diana and Fergie lost the HRH-style, because they never were "Royal Highnesses" in their own right, but only sharing their husband's Royal Titles. They used the widow's "name" from then on: Diana, Princess of Wales and Sarah, Duchess of York. If Charles had died while Diana was still married to him, Prince William would have advanced to the title "The Prince of Wales". Diana would have been "The Dowager Princess of Wales" on keeping her HRH-style.

After her divorce, Diana could have gone back to her old title of "Lady" IIRC. She was correctly Lady Diana Mountbatten-Windsor, princess of Wales. In short Diana Wales. To avoid any problems, people were asked to address her as "Madam", which is an address that can be used with any lady of higher rank. Sarah Mountbatten-Windsor had no own style from her father, she is Mrs. Sarah Mountbatten-Windsor, duchess of York.

In my opinion the queen should have done something about that, maybe make Sarah into a "dame" at least or give her her own title as Lady Something... Queen Beatrix was more careful: she made her new daughter-in-law Maxima into a "Princess of the Netherlands, Princess of Orange" in her own right, along with the style HRH. So even if The Prince of Orange divorced Princess Maxima, she still would be HRH Princess Maxima of the Netherlands.

Hope I recall all that correctly from a list where "precedence" was widely discussed...

 

[Princess Robijn]

The idea of being "commoner" is in the UK much stricter than in other countries with a monarchy. While in most countries the whole family of an aristocrat is considered "noble", in the UK only the head of the family is a "peer", all the others are "commoners".

The daughters take their "Precedence" - that is their social position - from their father. Daughters are thus ranked higher than second sons. That's why the daughter of an earl is styled "Lady", but a second brother would only be "The Honorable Mr."

When daughters marry a man higher in rank, they share his place in the order of precedence and take on his name.

Eg. The ficticious Lady Carina Plum, daughter of the earl of Marmelade marries the earl of Jam. Now she is The Countess of Jam, called Lady Jam.

Lady Carina married the brother of Lord Jam, the Honorable Mr. Keith
Cherry. Now she would be Lady Carina Cherry while he stays Mr. Keith Cherry.

Lady Carina marries Mr. Nobody. Then she is Lady Carina Nobody.

Lady Carina marries Lord Edward Apricot, second son of the duke of Jelly who is higher in rank than her. Now she is Lady Edward Apricot.

If Lady Carina was the daughter of a duke herself, her rank would be higher than Lord Edward's (because she shares her father's rank who is a peer). Now she could decide if she wanted to become The Lady Edward or stay The Lady Carina. She would have to take into account which dukedom was older - that of her father of that of Jelly.

On becoming Lord Jams widow she would still be the Countess of Jam if the next earl was not yet married. If her son is the next earl of Jam and is already married, she would be "The Dowager Countess of Jam". If the next earl was the son from her late husband's first marriage, she would be Carina, countess of Jam, but still be called Lady Jam. She would still be considered a countess in the order of precedence.

The last thing applies to divorcees as well. Except that they loose the precedence they shared with their husbands. Thus both Diana and Fergie lost the HRH-style, because they never were "Royal Highnesses" in their own right, but only sharing their husband's Royal Titles. They used the widow's "name" from then on: Diana, Princess of Wales and Sarah, Duchess of York. If Charles had died while Diana was still married to him, Prince William would have advanced to the title "The Prince of Wales". Diana would have been "The Dowager Princess of Wales" on keeping her HRH-style.

After her divorce, Diana could have gone back to her old title of "Lady" IIRC. She was correctly Lady Diana Mountbatten-Windsor, princess of Wales. In short Diana Wales. To avoid any problems, people were asked to address her as "Madam", which is an address that can be used with any lady of higher rank. Sarah Mountbatten-Windsor had no own style from her father, she is Mrs. Sarah Mountbatten-Windsor, duchess of York.

In my opinion the queen should have done something about that, maybe make Sarah into a "dame" at least or give her her own title as Lady Something... Queen Beatrix was more careful: she made her new daughter-in-law Maxima into a "Princess of the Netherlands, Princess of Orange" in her own right, along with the style HRH. So even if The Prince of Orange divorced Princess Maxima, she still would be HRH Princess Maxima of the Netherlands.

Hope I recall all that correctly from a list where "precedence" was widely discussed...

HRH Princess Máxima title is Princess of the Netherlands, Princess of Orange-Nassau, Mrs van Amsberg, she isn't the Princess of Orange, because of the fact that only the firstborn of the king/queen will have the title Prince(ss) of Orange..
so If Willem-Alexander becomes king, Catharina-Amalia will be the Princess of Orange..

 

[Warren]

Maxima's titles

HRH Princess Máxima title is Princess of the Netherlands, Princess of Orange-Nassau, Mrs van Amsberg, she isn't the Princess of Orange, because of the fact that only the firstborn of the king/queen will have the title Prince(ss) of Orange..
so If Willem-Alexander becomes king, Catharina-Amalia will be the Princess of Orange..

The above titles Maxima has been granted in her own right are correct, but she is also Princess of Orange by virtue of her marriage. Just as Letizia is Princess of the Asturias and Diana was Princess of Wales by virtue of their marriages. If and when Willem-Alexander becomes King she will cease to be Princess of Orange because she will be the Queen (Consort) of the Netherlands, and the title will devolve to their eldest child.

In the current era of gender equality it will be interesting to see if Catharina-Amalia's future husband receives the title of Prince of Orange as the spouse of the title-holder, or if equality of titles is only reserved for female spouses.

 

[CrownPrinceLorenzo]

Which one's a higher form of address?

His Highness(HH) or His Ducal Serene Highness(HDSH)?

And where does His Illustrious Higness(HIllH) fit in? Or His Serene Highness(HSH)?

 

[Eliza]

If I'm not mistaken, HSH is higher in rank than HH
and HRH is higher rank than HSH but i've not heard bout HIllH being used before by current royal families.

 

[CrownPrinceLorenzo]

I know HDSH fell out of fashion, the last person I know that used that address was Duke Wilhelm Georg August Heinrich Belgicus of Nassau.

As for HIllH, I'm not sure of it's out of fashion but supposedly The Count of Quadt uses it.

So HDSH, where does it place?

 

[Princess Robijn]

I don't believe the future husband of Princess Catharina-Amalia will get the title of prince of orange..

 

[Marengo]

Me neither Princess Robijn, the court want to use it only for the heir. Maxima is never referred to as The Princess of Orange on any official document or on the website of the court etc. It is always HRH The Prince of Orange and HRH Princess Maxima (of The Netherlands) (they don't use crownprince(ss) either btw).

 

[magnik]

From Wikipedia:

Imperial, Royal, and Princely Styles

Emperors and Empresses had the style of Imperial Majesty (HIM=His or Her Imperial Majesty).
Members of imperial families, generally had the style of Imperial Highness (HIH).

• In Austria, the members of the Imperial family, due to their status as also members of the royal family of Hungary, held the style of Imperial and Royal Highness (HI&RH).

• Also in Germany the Emperor and Empress would be addressed as Imperial and Royal Majesty because of them ruling over the Kingdom of Prussia and the German Empire.

• In Russia, children and male-line grandchildren of the Emperor had the style of Imperial Highness (HIH). Male-line great-grandchildren held the style of Highness (HH). Also, the eldest son of any person who held the style of Highness also held the style of Highness. All other male-line descendants held the style Serenity, often translated as Serene Highness (HSH). Some Russian noble princes also hold the style of Serenity; all others and Russian Counts hold the style of Illustriousness, often translated as Illustrious Highness (HIllH).

Kings and Queens have the style of Majesty (HM).
Members of royal families (Princes and Princesses) generally have the style of Royal Highness (HRH), although in some royal families (for instance, Denmark), more junior princes and princesses only bear the style of His or Her Highness (HH).
Members of reigning princely families are styled Serene Highness (HSH).
Reigning Grand Dukes and Grand Duchesses hold the style of Royal Highness (HRH).
The styles of members of Grand Ducal families have been inconsistent. In Luxembourg, more senior members of the family have also been Royal Highnesses, but only due to their status as princes of Bourbon of Parma. In Baden and Hesse and the Rhine, junior members held the style of Grand Ducal Highness (HGDH). Members of other grand ducal families generally held the style of Highness (HH).
Reigning Dukes and Duchesses bore the style of Highness (HH), as did other members of ducal families.
Junior members of some ducal families bore the style of Ducal Serene Highness (HDSH), although it fell out of fashion.
The Elector of Hesse-Kassel also bore the style of Highness, as did other members of the Hesse-Kassel family.
Mediatized Dukes and reigning and mediatized Fürsten and Fürstinnen (princes and princesses) bear the style of Serene Highness (HSH, German Durchlaucht), as do other members of princely families.
Mediatized Counts and Countesses bear the style of Illustrious Highness (HIllH, German Erlaucht).

 

[Little_star]

I'm not sure of the particulars but Princess Firyal still uses her title as a prncess when carrying out some of her charity work. Would this have been agreed upon when she divorced her husband?