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  #781  
Old 10-08-2019, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReeceT21 View Post
I wonder if we'll see something similar in other families moving forward. Will Sverre Magnus' wife not be a Princess either? [...]
That question seems to divide Norwegian royal watchers. From this forum, the well-informed Royal Norway predicted that a wife of Sverre Magnus will not be a Princess.

http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums...ml#post2140522


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Originally Posted by ReeceT21 View Post
I could see Denmark having Joachim's daughters-in-law simply be titled as Countesses of Monpezat (if titled at all) rather than Princesses.
According to Prince Joachim, it took some time for his mother the Queen to come to the decision that his second wife would be titled Princess (despite Joachim being an official working royal), so I could imagine the title being withheld from Joachim's daughters-in-law.

https://danishroyalwatchers.blogspot...onference.html


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Originally Posted by ReeceT21 View Post
Belgium could also consider it in the future considering all four of Philippe's children will pass on royal titles to their children and that will be a LOT of Princes/Princesses within a couple of generations.
It's unclear to me if King Philippe's younger daughter will pass on royal titles if she marries a commoner, but a royal decree issued in 2015 along with further announcements made clear that - at least - his sons, Princess Astrid's sons and Prince Laurent's sons will pass on princely titles to their legitimate children, so there will indeed be many Princes/Princesses in the Belgian royal family within a couple of generations, although most of them will not be HRHs or Princes/Princesses of Belgium.

Moniteur Belge - Belgisch Staatsblad
http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums...ml#post2252197

However, the relevant factors are quite different in Belgium. Hundreds of Princes and Princesses are part of the Belgian nobility, and being "only" Prince or Princess is not an exclusive or royal title in that country.
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  #782  
Old 10-08-2019, 04:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post

However, the relevant factors are quite different in Belgium. Hundreds of Princes and Princesses are part of the Belgian nobility, and being "only" Prince or Princess is not an exclusive or royal title in that country.

Nonetheless, it is odd to me (as a non-Belgian and non-European) that all direct descendants of King Leopold I be called "prince/princess" even though only a small part of them (those born as children or grandchildren of the King or the Crown Prince) will be HRHs (princes/princesses of Belgium).
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  #783  
Old 10-28-2019, 07:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
It is also interesting that the style “ Prince /Princess xxx of Belgium”, which is common in English, is nevertheless not used apparently in Belgium itself. Likewise, it appears that “Prince xxx of Sweden”, although common in English, is not used in Sweden either where, in daily use, one only says “ HRH Prince/Princess xxx”
It is likewise in Spain and in Denmark, with the official titles being Infanta/Infante of Spain and Princess/Prince to/of Denmark respectively, but the "of Spain" and "to/of Denmark" being seldom used in Spain and Denmark themselves.

In Norway, however, the official title is simply Princess/Prince, rather than Princess/Prince of Norway. Abroad, "of Norway" may be added for identification, but it is not an official title. I think it is the same in Britain.


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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
or, in formal use , HRH Xxx, Prince/Princess of Sweden, Duke/Duchess of xxx”.
I think it is properly HRH Prince/Princess xxx, Prince/Princess of Sweden, Duke/Duchess of xxx, the reason being that prior to 1982 the formal title of princes of the Swedish Royal House was HRH Prince xxx, Sweden's Arvfurste, Duke of xxx.
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  #784  
Old 06-07-2020, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by JR76 View Post
When the King of Sweden gave titles to the children of his second daughter a third of the forums raged, one third cheered and one third remained indifferent. It's hard to please everyone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KellyAtLast View Post
Did they react that way because they didn't like the kings decision or was it because his second daughter doesn't have a positive reputation and they don't like the decision because they don't like her. what was the reaction when he gave titles to the children of his son.
While composing an answer to KellyAtLast's question, I thought I would also look at the reaction on the forums when other children of (younger) sons were given royal titles.

*Prince Félix and Prince Louis of Luxembourg were living outside of the country when their children were given royal titles, the same as King of Sweden's younger daughter.


First child of Prince Carl Philip of Sweden: No negative reactions to the child's royal title.

Princess Sofia is Expecting - Due April 2016
A Boy for Carl Philip and Sofia - Alexander Erik Hubertus Bertil: April 19, 2016

First child of Prince Félix of Luxembourg*: No negative reactions to the child's royal title.

Félix and Claire Expecting First Child
A Girl for Félix and Claire - Amalia Gabriela Maria Teresa: June 15, 2014

Children of Prince Louis of Luxembourg*: No negative reactions to the children being given titles. There is one comment suggesting they should have been created counts instead of princes, but most reactions are extremely positive about the royal titles.

New Titles for Tessy, Gabriel and Noah de Nassau: June 23, 2009

First child from the second marriage of Prince Joachim of Denmark: No negative reactions to the child's royal title.

Princess Marie is Pregnant!
Baby Boy for Princess Marie and Prince Joachim: May 4, 2009

First child of Prince Laurent of Belgium: No negative reactions to the child's royal title.

Princess Claire Pregnant
A Daughter for Laurent and Claire

I limited myself to the European royal families, but I would be interested to know about reactions to other families.
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  #785  
Old 06-07-2020, 11:40 AM
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Apart from the british royals the other european ones are much less under scrutiny - so a royal titel is much less a burden than in britain.
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  #786  
Old 09-07-2020, 09:51 AM
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Recently I posted a summary table of British royal and noble titles and styles to the "Questions about British Styles and Titles" forum.

Similarly, I have been also working on tables for Spanish and (French-language) Belgian royal and noble titles and styles , but that is still a work in progress and the information therein has not been fully verified as in the British case. The attached files show what I have got so far.

The summary tables are written respectively in Spanish and French (as I did not want to mix languages in the tables), but the explanatory comments that follow the tables are written in English so that all forum members can read them. I apologize in advance if I made any spelling, grammar or semantic mistake in French or in Spanish (those are not my native languages).
Attached Files
File Type: doc Adresse-Belge-v5.doc (72.0 KB, 30 views)
File Type: doc Tratamiento-Español-v4.doc (88.0 KB, 20 views)
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  #787  
Old 09-07-2020, 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Recently I posted a summary table of British royal and noble titles and styles to the "Questions about British Styles and Titles" forum.

Similarly, I have been also working on tables for Spanish and (French-language) Belgian royal and noble titles and styles , but that is still a work in progress and the information therein has not been fully verified as in the British case. The attached files show what I have got so far.

The summary tables are written respectively in Spanish and French (as I did not want to mix languages in the tables), but the explanatory comments that follow the tables are written in English so that all forum members can read them. I apologize in advance if I made any spelling, grammar or semantic mistake in French or in Spanish (those are not my native languages).
Thank you very much for doing this! As always, I greatly appreciate your effort to be both explanatory and accurate.

I can't be of much assistance with the noble forms of address, but in the thread on Belgian titles I've previously shared a few examples of how wives of Princes of Belgium who were not created Princesses of Belgium themselves are formally styled. In summary, there are two styles that the Belgian court applies in these cases:

1. HRH Princess Amedeo of Belgium, with HRH and "of Belgium" but without the wife's own forename or surname.
2. Princess Elisabetta (Rosboch von Wolkenstein), with the wife's own forename (and, if desired, surname) but with neither HRH nor "of Belgium".

Since I don't recall sharing this link in the Belgian thread, here is an article which quotes a Palace press announcement in which she was styled Princess Elisabetta Maria Rosboch von Wolkenstein.

It occurred to me as I read your summaries that many of the rules you have listed for the royal families are recent inventions (e.g. the treatment of Infantas and their spouses has only been the general rule for one generation, since Pilar and Margarita's unequal marriages were exceptions to the rules in place at the time). It has become a knotty exercise to describe the rules of European royal titles, as they have undergone many rapid changes over the last few decades.
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  #788  
Old 09-23-2020, 03:21 AM
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Herman II of Baden was the first to use the title of "Margrave of Baden" in 1112.
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  #789  
Old 03-10-2021, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by TLLK View Post
https://www.google.com/search?client...rriage+meaning

Quote:
Morganatic marriage, legally valid marriage between a male member of a sovereign, princely, or noble house and a woman of lesser birth or rank, with the provision that she shall not thereby accede to his rank and that the children of the marriage shall not succeed to their father’s hereditary dignities, fiefs, and entailed property.
Actually, the term "morganatic marriage" is also used to describe such marriages between female members of a sovereign or noble house and men of lesser birth or rank. While this usage is apparently uncommon in Britain I have observed it used in books and articles about marriages of German and Italian princesses.
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  #790  
Old 03-26-2021, 10:26 PM
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Lately there has been discussion over the name of the royal house of Sweden in the third child of Prince Carl Philip and Princess Sofia thread. As I want to stick with the topic, I would like to share a few thoughts about it:

Not all royal/noble house share the same membership rules. The right to interpret the rules lies in the hands of the head of the house, not a mere monarch who happens to belong to the house.

The reason why Frederik and Joachim are not considered a part of the House of Oldenburg or Glücksborg is because Margrethe II is neither the head of the House of Oldenburg nor of the House of Glücksborg, and she has no right to amend the rules to include Frederik and Joachim. Their house would by default be Monpezat.

Similarly, Victoria is not the head of the house of Hanover either and got the British throne due to British, not Hanoverian, rules. Edward VII was hence by default a member of the House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, not Hanover.

George V, however, founded the House of Windsor, whose membership follows British rules, and that's why Elizabeth II, not the Duke of Gloucester, is the head of the house of Windsor, and her descendants are also members of the House of Windsor (though this thread has "Non-British" in it, the British house name is not a main point in this post)

Similarly, Carl XVI Gustaf is the head of the House of Bernadotte through a line of firstborns (except Oscar II and himself), and reserves the right to decide who is a member of the House of Bernadotte and who is not. Sweden listed in its royal family website that Estelle, the first child of the first heiress apparent under AP, is a member of the House of Bernadotte.

Albert I of Belgium founded the House of Belgium and its current head is King Philippe. He reserves the right to declare whether Princess Elisabeth's children will be a member of the House of Belgium.
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  #791  
Old 03-27-2021, 07:51 PM
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I am not sure if you are talking of legal rights or moral rights, so I will also share my thoughts on both.

Under Danish, German, or EU law, the head of the house of Oldenburg and/or Glücksburg is not recognized as an authority over Denmark or the Danish royal family, and he has no legal rights to prescribe or interpret the rules for the naming or membership of the Danish royal house. That remains the prerogative of Denmark's sovereign.

As of ten years ago, the official website of Crown Prince Frederik stated: "The day Crown Prince Frederik ascends the throne of Denmark he will be the sixth monarch in the line of Glücksborg, a family which took the Danish throne when Christian IX was crowned after Frederik VII died without an heir in 1863." So far there is no indication that this decision has been changed.

In regards to moral rights, my position is that reigning monarchs ought to shape their decisions by the values of their own realm in preference to the values of distant cousins in a foreign country, and that women and their descendants must not be treated less favorably than men and their descendants. We do not need to agree with each other, of course.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 0325.Mikael.0929 View Post
Albert I of Belgium founded the House of Belgium and its current head is King Philippe. He reserves the right to declare whether Princess Elisabeth's children will be a member of the House of Belgium.
Due to the changes of 2015 the Belgian royal house is once more officially known as the House of Saxe-Coburg.

https://www.monarchie.be/en/royal-fa...of-the-dynasty
https://www.theroyalforums.com/forum...ml#post2186636
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  #792  
Old 03-28-2021, 04:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
In regards to moral rights, my position is that reigning monarchs ought to shape their decisions by the values of their own realm in preference to the values of distant cousins in a foreign country, and that women and their descendants must not be treated less favorably than men and their descendants. We do not need to agree with each other, of course.
I agree. The House of Bernadotte, as a royal and sovereign dynasty that was founded in Sweden in the 1810s, does not listen to orders from a higher authority to determine who belongs to their own house, because sovereignty means "supreme authority" and the House of Bernadotte themselves is already one. There is no higher authority than the House of Bernadotte (which is also the sovereign, royal house of Sweden) to interpret who is a member of the house.

https://www.kungahuset.se/royalcourt...218000814.html
This page is the official and probably the most reliable source on who is a member of the House of Bernadotte (excluding descendants of the Counts of Wisborg who weren't born Royal).
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  #793  
Old 08-22-2021, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Some monarchical constitutions use the word "King" to refer to the Head of State probably because they were originally written at a time when only men could succeed to the throne. That is definitely the case for example in Belgium, Denmark and Norway.
I'm not sure that is the reason why. The majority of current European monarchical constitutions involved male-preference or gender-equal primogeniture when they were originally written. Only the constitutions of Liechtenstein, Norway, Sweden, and Belgium were originally written to have male-only primogeniture.

But with the exception of Sweden's, all European monarchical constitutions use the word King, Grand Duke, Fürst or Prince in most or all references to the Head of State. The Spanish constitution's reference to "the Queen consort or the consort of the Queen" and the provisions of the Danish and Norwegian Constitutions that govern succession to the throne are the only places which use the feminine title.

In English, before usage moved on, masculine pronouns and forms of titles were accepted as gender neutral if used without reference to a specific person ("When an ambassador pays a visit to the Palace, he is welcomed"). I believe that principle also applied to other Western European languages, and suspect the use of masculine titles in the constitutions was the result.

Interestingly, most job titles in English have shifted to fully gender-neutral use of the masculine form. A woman ambassador is now always referred to as an ambassador and not an ambassadress, for instance. Should the shift eventually expand to royal titles it is possible that King and Prince could become gender-neutral titles in the distant future.
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