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  #761  
Old 06-21-2019, 09:41 AM
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In order of rank in Spain


King/Queen
Prince/Princess of Asturias
Infante/Infanta
Duke/Duchess
Marqués/Marquesa
Count/Countess
Viscount/Viscountess
Baron/Baroness
Don/Doña (Lord/Lady)
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  #762  
Old 06-21-2019, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Stefan View Post
I know that but why it is not that the Heir is HRH Infanta Sofia of Spain, Princess of Asturias like it is in other monarchies. So the Heir would be a Prince/Princess but still of Spain
It is simply that different monarchies have different traditions. Likewise, the Crown Princess of Sweden does not carry an extra title of Princess of Sweden.

In the Spanish monarchies, as Mbruno said, King/Queen and Prince/Princess have always superseded the lesser title of Infante/Infanta from the moment the holder became entitled to the higher title. The full titles of King Carlos IV of Spain are given in a legal text quoted on the official website of Casa Real as:
Sirva como muestra la extensa titulación de Carlos IV, todavía en 1805, plasmada en la Real Cédula que precedía al texto legal de la Novísima Recopilación de las Leyes de España con ocasión de su promulgación: “Don Carlos por la gracia de Dios, Rey de Castilla, de León, de Aragón, de las Dos Sicilias, de Jerusalem, de Navarra, de Granada, de Toledo, de Valencia, de Galicia, de Mallorca, de Menorca, de Sevilla, de Cerdeña, de Córdoba, de Córcega, de Murcia, de Jaén, de los Algarbes, de Algeciras, de Gibraltar, de las Islas de Canaria, de las Indias Orientales y Occidentales, islas y Tierra firme del mar Océano; Archiduque de Austria; Duque de Borgoña, de Brabante y de Milán; Conde de Apsburg, de Flandes, Tirol y Barcelona; Señor de Vizcaya y de Molina”.
Infante is absent from the list, in accordance with the Spanish rules.


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Originally Posted by Stefan View Post
But after he succeeded his fatehr as head of the Royal House he was never a Prince nor a King. The Royal Decree does not mention that a Count of Barcelona is no Infante. And he was also often to referred as Infate. So why not also his wife.
Count of Barcelona is one of the many titles of the Kings of Spain (see the list above). The family recognized him as king of Spain despite Spain's republican government, just as Constantine of Greece and Margareta of Romania are recognized by their families as king of Greece and queen of Romania respectively, disregarding that Greece and Romania are republics.

Do you have an example of when he was referred to as Infante after becoming the heir to the headship of the house? He was of course an Infante prior to that.


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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Juan Carlos for example was never Prince of Asturias although Franco at one point made him a “ Prince of Spain”, which is not a traditional Spanish royal title.
I believe Prince of Spain was used under the House of Austria, the dynasty which reigned over Spain prior to the Bourbons.

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Originally Posted by An Ard Ri View Post
Felipe was styled His Royal Highness The Infante Felipe of Spain up until 1977 when the title of Prince of Asturias was conferred on him
He was entitled to be styled Prince as the heir apparent to the throne from 1975, and then became Prince of Asturias, as you pointed out, in 1977.
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  #763  
Old 06-21-2019, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Stefan View Post
I know that but why it is not that the Heir is HRH Infanta Sofia of Spain, Princess of Asturias like it is in other monarchies. So the Heir would be a Prince/Princess but still of Spain



I don't think so. Since her father's accession, Leonor is


"S.A.R. doña Leonor de todos los Santos de Borbón y Ortiz, Princesa de Asturias, de Gerona y de Viana, Duquesa de Montblanch, Condesa de Cervera, Señora de Balaguer"


Her sister Sofía is


"S.A.R. doña Sofía de Todos los Santos de Borbón y Ortiz, Infanta de España."


Felipe is

"S.M. don Felipe VI Juan Manuel Pablo Alfonso de Todos los Santos de Borbón y Grecia, Rey de España."


Note that the title of Prince is also superseded by that of King as the title of Infante is superseded by that of Prince. That is different, e.g. from the situation in Belgium where the title of Prince of Belgium is held for life. For example, King Philippe is


"Sa Majesté le Roi Philippe Léopold Louis Marie, Roi des Belges, Prince de Belgique".




On a side note, I find it cool that King Juan Carlos sought to preserve many of the old traditions of the Alphonsine monarchy like the use of traditional titles such as Infante/ Prince of Asturias, and the awarding of the historic state and dynastic orders (like the order of Carlos III and the order of the Golden Fleece), but, at the same time, abandoned much of the more old-fashioned pomp and ceremony of the pre-Civil War period to have a more toned-down monarchy in tune with contemporary Spain.




EDIT: See below the Cardinal Archbishop of Madrid correctly stating the titles of D. Felipe at Felipe's wedding with doña Letizia,



https://youtu.be/WgYJzGJhZ7o?t=3817
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  #764  
Old 06-25-2019, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
I don't think so. Since her father's accession, Leonor is


"S.A.R. doña Leonor de todos los Santos de Borbón y Ortiz, Princesa de Asturias, de Gerona y de Viana, Duquesa de Montblanch, Condesa de Cervera, Señora de Balaguer"


Her sister Sofía is


"S.A.R. doña Sofía de Todos los Santos de Borbón y Ortiz, Infanta de España."


Felipe is

"S.M. don Felipe VI Juan Manuel Pablo Alfonso de Todos los Santos de Borbón y Grecia, Rey de España."


Note that the title of Prince is also superseded by that of King as the title of Infante is superseded by that of Prince. That is different, e.g. from the situation in Belgium where the title of Prince of Belgium is held for life. For example, King Philippe is


"Sa Majesté le Roi Philippe Léopold Louis Marie, Roi des Belges, Prince de Belgique".




On a side note, I find it cool that King Juan Carlos sought to preserve many of the old traditions of the Alphonsine monarchy like the use of traditional titles such as Infante/ Prince of Asturias, and the awarding of the historic state and dynastic orders (like the order of Carlos III and the order of the Golden Fleece), but, at the same time, abandoned much of the more old-fashioned pomp and ceremony of the pre-Civil War period to have a more toned-down monarchy in tune with contemporary Spain.




EDIT: See below the Cardinal Archbishop of Madrid correctly stating the titles of D. Felipe at Felipe's wedding with doña Letizia,



https://youtu.be/WgYJzGJhZ7o?t=3817
Very well said. Leonor's full title doesn't include Princess of Spain nor Princess of Bourbon-Anjou and all Infante/Infanta have only Infante/Infante of Spain title not Prince/Princess of Spain.

It's also true that when the King of Spain assumes the throne, he will only be called by the title King of Spain and other traditional titles, there will be no mention that he is a Prince of Bourbon-Anjou (his royal house.) But all of them bears "de Borbon" surname.

This is different to Belgian and Dutch custom where Kings full title includes their royal house title like for example Prince de Belgique for King Philippe of the Belgians and Prince of Orange-Nassau for King Willem-Alexander (full title: Zijne Majesteit Koning der Nederlanden, Prins van Oranje-Nassau, Jonkheer van Amsberg, etc.)
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  #765  
Old 06-25-2019, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Lumutqueen View Post
Surely it would be as it is in Denmark now. Crown Prince Pavlov and Crown Princess MC of Greece.
This manner of using your husbands rank, name, title and style is an old German royal tradition that stretches to some royal houses that was originated in the old Germany. Like the Hanovers and Hohenzollerns, wife of Prince takes his husband's rank, name, title (but if you have a higher style; you can use it.)

As for the House of Glücksburg that also originated in Germany, traditionally, they followed the same custom. Greek Royal wives in history, do this strictly. The Duke of Edinburgh's mom Alice who was a Battenberg princess became HRH Princess Andrew of Greece and Denmark. Same in Denmark, the most recent example would be Queen Margrethe's aunt, Princess Caroline-Mathilde of Denmark (born Princess of Denmark.) When she married Prince Knud of Denmark, she became Princess Knud of Denmark.

In Germany, this style only affects those that doesn't have any other titles aside from being married to a Prince. Both in Hanover and Hohenzollern Royal Family, the Hereditary Prince's wife can have her name plus the title. Like recently when George Friedrich married Sophie of Isenburg, Sophie was styled, HI&RH Sophie, Prince of Prussia and not Princess George Friedrich of Prussia. Same with HRH Ernst August, Hereditary Prince of Hanover married Ekaterina, she became Ekaterina, Hereditary Princess of Hanover and not Princess Ernst August. In contrast to her sister-in-law, Alessandra Osma who married Ernst August younger brother. She is called Princess Christian of Hanover after marriage.

Glücksburg

So as to MC and Mary being called MC, Crown Princess of Greece, MM, Crown Princess of Norway and Mary, Crown Princess of Denmark, there's no problem. But with Princess Tatiana of Greece and Denmark being called like that instead of Princess Nicholas of Greece and Denmark and Princess Mary of Denmark being called like that instead of Princess Joachim of Denmark---- that's really incorrect.
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  #766  
Old 06-25-2019, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by theroyalfly View Post
This manner of using your husbands rank, name, title and style is an old German royal tradition that stretches to some royal houses that was originated in the old Germany. Like the Hanovers and Hohenzollerns, wife of Prince takes his husband's rank, name, title (but if you have a higher style; you can use it.)

As for the House of Glücksburg that also originated in Germany, traditionally, they followed the same custom. Greek Royal wives in history, do this strictly. The Duke of Edinburgh's mom Alice who was a Battenberg princess became HRH Princess Andrew of Greece and Denmark. Same in Denmark, the most recent example would be Queen Margrethe's aunt, Princess Caroline-Mathilde of Denmark (born Princess of Denmark.) When she married Prince Knud of Denmark, she became Princess Knud of Denmark.

[...]

Glücksburg

So as to MC and Mary being called MC, Crown Princess of Greece, MM, Crown Princess of Norway and Mary, Crown Princess of Denmark, there's no problem. But with Princess Tatiana of Greece and Denmark being called like that instead of Princess Nicholas of Greece and Denmark and Princess Mary of Denmark being called like that instead of Princess Joachim of Denmark---- that's really incorrect.
I have never seen the Danish or Greek Glücksburgs call princesses by their husbands' given names, with the exception of the unequal wives of Prince Waldemar's sons. Could you share an example of when they have done so?

Currently, the official websites of the Danish royal family and Greek former royal family call wives by their own given names: Princess Marie and Princess Tatiana.
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  #767  
Old 06-26-2019, 03:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
I have never seen the Danish or Greek Glücksburgs call princesses by their husbands' given names, with the exception of the unequal wives of Prince Waldemar's sons. Could you share an example of when they have done so?

Currently, the official websites of the Danish royal family and Greek former royal family call wives by their own given names: Princess Marie and Princess Tatiana.
Perhaps, getting away with tradition. Yes, both are being addressed as Princess Marie and Princess Tiara.
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  #768  
Old 06-26-2019, 04:15 AM
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Originally Posted by theroyalfly View Post
T

In Germany, this style only affects those that doesn't have any other titles aside from being married to a Prince. Both in Hanover and Hohenzollern Royal Family, the Hereditary Prince's wife can have her name plus the title. Like recently when George Friedrich married Sophie of Isenburg, Sophie was styled, HI&RH Sophie, Prince of Prussia and not Princess George Friedrich of Prussia. Same with HRH Ernst August, Hereditary Prince of Hanover married Ekaterina, she became Ekaterina, Hereditary Princess of Hanover and not Princess Ernst August. In contrast to her sister-in-law, Alessandra Osma who married Ernst August younger brother. She is called Princess Christian of Hanover after marriage.

Glücksburg

.

Actually that is not true. For example in the bavarian RF the wife of Pricne Leopold is always called Princess Ursula never Princess Leopold. The same for the Württemberg Familly wher ethe wives are called Duchess Marie etc.
Do you have an example where thei wife of Prince Christian is called Princess Christian istead of Princess Alessandra.
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  #769  
Old 06-26-2019, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by theroyalfly View Post
Very well said. Leonor's full title doesn't include Princess of Spain nor Princess of Bourbon-Anjou and all Infante/Infanta have only Infante/Infante of Spain title not Prince/Princess of Spain.

It's also true that when the King of Spain assumes the throne, he will only be called by the title King of Spain and other traditional titles, there will be no mention that he is a Prince of Bourbon-Anjou (his royal house.) But all of them bears "de Borbon" surname.

This is different to Belgian and Dutch custom where Kings full title includes their royal house title like for example Prince de Belgique for King Philippe of the Belgians and Prince of Orange-Nassau for King Willem-Alexander (full title: Zijne Majesteit Koning der Nederlanden, Prins van Oranje-Nassau, Jonkheer van Amsberg, etc.)
To expand on your informative comment, it is not unusual for royals not to be officially referred to as "of [Country]". Indeed, I am not sure if royals are referred to this manner in the royal families of the Middle East, Africa, or Asia - is anyone here able to clarify?

Among the royal families of Europe, there are many which do not style all their members as "of [Country]". In Norway princesses and princes are properly styled Princess Märtha Louise, not Princess Märtha Louise of Norway. In Belgium children and grandchildren may be styled Princess [Name] of Belgium, but great-grandchildren and beyond are only Princess [Name]. The cousin of the queen of Great Britain is properly styled Princess Alexandra, the Hon. Lady Ogilvy, not Princess Alexandra of Great Britain, the Hon. Lady Ogilvy.


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Originally Posted by Stefan View Post
Actually that is not true. For example in the bavarian RF the wife of Pricne Leopold is always called Princess Ursula never Princess Leopold. The same for the Württemberg Familly wher ethe wives are called Duchess Marie etc.
Likewise, the two German houses which are still sovereign - the Nassaus and the Liechtensteins - call wives of princes by their own names.

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Originally Posted by theroyalfly View Post
Perhaps, getting away with tradition. Yes, both are being addressed as Princess Marie and Princess Tiara.
The tradition of Scandinavia and southern and eastern Europe is to use the wife's own name, also for wives of princes.

For example, the registry of the Order of the Elephant uses "Hendes Kongelige Højhed Prinsesse Margaretha" (born Princess of Sweden and the wife of Prince Axel of Denmark since 1919) and "Hendes Kongelige Højhed Arveprinsesse Caroline-Mathilde" (born Princess of Denmark and the wife of Hereditary Prince Knud of Denmark since 1933).

The daughters-of-law of Georgios I, the earliest modern example of a Greek monarch who fathered sons, appear to be called Prinkipissa Maria, Prinkipissa Eleni, etc. in Greek.

At any rate, the German ducal house of Glücksburg originated as a junior line of the Danish royal house of Oldenburg. But even if the origins had been reversed, many royal families adhere to the traditions of their own country over the traditions of the country where their house originated. The current Spanish and Swedish royal houses originate in France, but these royal houses adhere to the Spanish and Swedish usage and neither of them has taken on the old French tradition of using the husband's first name.

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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
On a side note, I find it cool that King Juan Carlos sought to preserve many of the old traditions of the Alphonsine monarchy like the use of traditional titles such as Infante/ Prince of Asturias, and the awarding of the historic state and dynastic orders (like the order of Carlos III and the order of the Golden Fleece), but, at the same time, abandoned much of the more old-fashioned pomp and ceremony of the pre-Civil War period to have a more toned-down monarchy in tune with contemporary Spain.
You set out very valid points in relation to toning down the monarchy in keeping with contemporary sentiments. I do believe though that King Juan Carlos' decree ought to have respected the centuries-old right of consorts to use their wives' or husbands' titles (provided the marriage is dynastic), especially as the consorts of Spanish nobles continue to be able to do so without exception.
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  #770  
Old 06-26-2019, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by theroyalfly View Post
This is different to Belgian and Dutch custom where Kings full title includes their royal house title like for example Prince de Belgique for King Philippe of the Belgians and Prince of Orange-Nassau for King Willem-Alexander (full title: Zijne Majesteit Koning der Nederlanden, Prins van Oranje-Nassau, Jonkheer van Amsberg, etc.)
The Netherlands distinguishes between the reigning monarch and the spouse also by way of letting the spouse remain prince(ss) of the Netherlands, while the Sovereign is king/queen of the Netherlands instead. So, Willem-Alexander is no longer a prince of the Netherlands (because he is the King - so unlike king Philippe who apparently is both king and prince of Belgium; learned something new today! - only after abdication will he return to be a prince of the Netherlands once more); while Máxima still is a princess of the Netherlands, as she is not 'Queen of the Netherlands' but 'Queen Máxima, princess of the Netherlands, princess of Orange-Nassau'.
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  #771  
Old 06-26-2019, 04:01 PM
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[.....] I don't think so. Since her father's accession, Leonor is

On a side note, I find it cool that King Juan Carlos sought to preserve many of the old traditions of the Alphonsine monarchy like the use of traditional titles such as Infante/ Prince of Asturias, and the awarding of the historic state and dynastic orders (like the order of Carlos III and the order of the Golden Fleece), but, at the same time, abandoned much of the more old-fashioned pomp and ceremony of the pre-Civil War period to have a more toned-down monarchy in tune with contemporary Spain.
[.... ]
The Spanish monarchy still displays incredible pomp and ceremony, but to foreign media only those dull pictures in front of one of the Zarzuela buildings, or Doña Letizia in hat-and glove less low key appearances. That is not the complete image. See how Ambassadors are welcomed at the Royal Palace:

Entrada: https://carlosmartinezrodriguez.file...enciales-1.jpg
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  #772  
Old 06-27-2019, 02:28 AM
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The Netherlands distinguishes between the reigning monarch and the spouse also by way of letting the spouse remain prince(ss) of the Netherlands, while the Sovereign is king/queen of the Netherlands instead. So, Willem-Alexander is no longer a prince of the Netherlands (because he is the King - so unlike king Philippe who apparently is both king and prince of Belgium; learned something new today! - only after abdication will he return to be a prince of the Netherlands once more); while Máxima still is a princess of the Netherlands, as she is not 'Queen of the Netherlands' but 'Queen Máxima, princess of the Netherlands, princess of Orange-Nassau'.
I think the case of Belgium where the monarch remains Prince of Belgium after he has become King is unque. As far as i know neither King Carl Gustaf is still Prince of Sweden or King Harald is still Prince of Norway etc.
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  #773  
Old 06-27-2019, 11:32 AM
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I think the case of Belgium where the monarch remains Prince of Belgium after he has become King is unque. As far as i know neither King Carl Gustaf is still Prince of Sweden or King Harald is still Prince of Norway etc.
King Carl XVI Gustav of Sweden is, according to the Royal website, not a prince anymore, but he's still the Duke of Jämtland.
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  #774  
Old 06-27-2019, 11:34 AM
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King Carl XVI Gustav of Sweden is, according to the Royal website, not a prince anymore, but he's still the Duke of Jämtland.
But it wasn't the case with prevoius Kings. In one case (think with King Oscar I. but not sure) his former ducal Title was given to his grandsoin but the King then was still alive.
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Old 06-27-2019, 11:49 AM
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But it wasn't the case with prevoius Kings. In one case (think with King Oscar I. but not sure) his former ducal Title was given to his grandsoin but the King then was still alive.
You're right. I hadn't realised that. The Duchy of Södermanland was awarded to Prince Carl Oscar although his grandparents were still alive and also The Duchy of Östergötland was awarded to Prince Carl jr although his grandmother The Queen Dowager Sofia was still alive.

34§ of the Instrument of Government from 1772 that reintroduced the royal duchies doesn't mention if they're for life or not, but apparently the monarchs disgarded their duchies when they ascended their thrones. King Carl XVI Gustav chose to keep his title when he ascended the throne in 1973. Fun fact though is that Queen Silvia isn't listed as Duchess of Jämtland.
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  #776  
Old 06-27-2019, 01:18 PM
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I don't think so. Since her father's accession, Leonor is


"S.A.R. doña Leonor de todos los Santos de Borbón y Ortiz, Princesa de Asturias, de Gerona y de Viana, Duquesa de Montblanch, Condesa de Cervera, Señora de Balaguer"

Leonor is Lady de Balague not Mrs,might have been a translation error .
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  #777  
Old 06-27-2019, 06:24 PM
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The Netherlands distinguishes between the reigning monarch and the spouse also by way of letting the spouse remain prince(ss) of the Netherlands, while the Sovereign is king/queen of the Netherlands instead. So, Willem-Alexander is no longer a prince of the Netherlands (because he is the King - so unlike king Philippe who apparently is both king and prince of Belgium; learned something new today! - only after abdication will he return to be a prince of the Netherlands once more); while Máxima still is a princess of the Netherlands, as she is not 'Queen of the Netherlands' but 'Queen Máxima, princess of the Netherlands, princess of Orange-Nassau'.
More precisely, the Belgian sovereign is King "of the Belgians" and Prince "of Belgium".

The official act documenting Prince Laurent of Belgium's marriage in 2003 notes Prince Laurent's parents as:
"Zijne Majesteit Koning Albert II Felix Humbert Theodoor Christiaan Eugène Marie, Koning der Belgen, Prins van België,"

(His Majesty King Albert II Felix Humbert Theodoor Christiaan Eugène Marie, King of the Belgians, Prince of Belgium)

"Hare Majesteit Koningin Paola Margherita Maria-Antonia Consiglia van de Prinsen Ruffo di Calabria, Prinses van België,"

(Her Majesty Queen Paola Margherita Maria-Antonia Consiglia of the Princes Ruffo di Calabria, Princess of Belgium)
The legal usage in Belgium also distinguishes between the reigning king and the queen consort as the latter is not legally named as Queen "of the Belgians" or even Queen "of Belgium". (Unlike the Netherlands, however, the queen consort of Belgium continues to be referred to as Queen of the Belgians by courtesy.)



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You're right. I hadn't realised that. The Duchy of Södermanland was awarded to Prince Carl Oscar although his grandparents were still alive and also The Duchy of Östergötland was awarded to Prince Carl jr although his grandmother The Queen Dowager Sofia was still alive.

34§ of the Instrument of Government from 1772 that reintroduced the royal duchies doesn't mention if they're for life or not, but apparently the monarchs disgarded their duchies when they ascended their thrones. King Carl XVI Gustav chose to keep his title when he ascended the throne in 1973. Fun fact though is that Queen Silvia isn't listed as Duchess of Jämtland.
I wonder if it may have been a mistaken omission, as Prince Daniel is listed as Duke of Västergötland and Princess Sofia as Duchess of Värmland.

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Originally Posted by An Ard Ri View Post
Leonor is Lady de Balague not Mrs,might have been a translation error .
I don't think the original post included a translation, but Lady of Balaguer would indeed be the best English translation of Señora de Balaguer. Señora is the Spanish equivalent of the English Lady in reference to a female holder of a lordship (as well as the equivalent of the English Ms. when it is used with a family name).
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  #778  
Old 06-27-2019, 06:43 PM
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I think the case of Belgium where the monarch remains Prince of Belgium after he has become King is unque. As far as i know neither King Carl Gustaf is still Prince of Sweden or King Harald is still Prince of Norway etc.
Not quite the same situation, but King Willem-Alexander is still Prince of Orange-Nassau, but no longer Prince of the Netherlands.

Queen Maxima on the other hand is still both Princess of the Netherlands and Princess of Orange-Nassau.
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  #779  
Old 06-27-2019, 11:30 PM
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I wonder if it may have been a mistaken omission, as Prince Daniel is listed as Duke of Västergötland and Princess Sofia as Duchess of Värmland.
Sveriges Radio (Radio Sweden) at its website
When a person becomes king, he stops using the title Duke. When Carl Gustaf married Silvia, he was already king. Therefore, Queen Silvia did not become a duchess of any province.
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  #780  
Old 06-28-2019, 02:26 AM
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Not quite the same situation, but King Willem-Alexander is still Prince of Orange-Nassau, but no longer Prince of the Netherlands.

Queen Maxima on the other hand is still both Princess of the Netherlands and Princess of Orange-Nassau.

Like Grand Duke Henri is still Prince of Bourbon Parma as was Grand Duke Jean.
With Máxima it has to with the issue that the don't want her to be styled as Queen of the Netherlands as where the other dutch Queens before
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