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  #741  
Old 06-19-2019, 08:17 PM
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All royal styles and titles are used on behalf of the Queen. It doesn’t matter what they are styled as. If the Queen deems it so, then so be it.
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  #742  
Old 06-19-2019, 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
As The Court Circular is approved by Queen Elizabeth II I am sure she knows how and why to refer to her counterparts and if she believed it was wrong she would correct it.

You are basically saying that the longest serving monarch doesn't know how to refer to her counterparts when they are in the UK.

She uses the UK usage which is totally appropriate in the UK. It is the same thing with Princess male name - a UK thing. Even her mother-in-law was HRH Princess Andrew in the UK even though she had been born as Princess Alice of Hesse.
Does Queen Elizabeth II likewise believe that it would be appropriate for her European counterparts to refer to members of her own family using the usages of their countries, such as Duchess Camilla in lieu of The Duchess of Cornwall, Princess Marie-Christine of Kent in lieu of Princess Michael of Kent, or Ms. Zara Phillips Mountbatten-Windsor (by the Spanish custom) in lieu of Mrs. Michael Tindall?
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  #743  
Old 06-19-2019, 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Does Queen Elizabeth II likewise believe that it would be appropriate for her European counterparts to refer to members of her own family using the usages of their countries, such as Duchess Camilla in lieu of The Duchess of Cornwall, Princess Marie-Christine of Kent in lieu of Princess Michael of Kent, or Ms. Zara Phillips Mountbatten-Windsor (by the Spanish custom) in lieu of Mrs. Michael Tindall?
There is a fair point, however, about practicality , which was raised once by a fellow poster ( probably MARG). Using “Queen of Spain” or “Queen of the Netherlands” enables the CC reader to know where those queens consort are from, which otherwise would not be explicit.
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  #744  
Old 06-19-2019, 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
There is a fair point, however, about practicality , which was raised once by a fellow poster ( probably MARG). Using “Queen of Spain” or “Queen of the Netherlands” enables the CC reader to know where those queens consort are from, which otherwise would not be explicit.
I agree, and conceivably the Kings of Spain and the Netherlands may endorse that usage, at least when their wives are traveling in foreign countries (at any rate, I think the absence of the territorial designation with regard to a queen consort was a relatively late modification in both of these countries).

However, Iluvbertie listed a further example of Elizabeth II referring to her mother-in-law, Princess Aliki by Greek usage, as Princess Andrew, which cannot be justified by practicality. If it is the case that Queen Elizabeth II simply believes British usage is appropriate for foreign royals in the United Kingdom, then foreign royal courts would be justified by both fairness and practicality in referring to Princess Michael of Kent as Princess Marie-Christine of Kent, which allows the inhabitants of those countries to understand that the princess's name is Marie-Christine and not Michael.


For clarity's sake, I believe that would be entirely appropriate, but what would not be fair is the expectation that non-Britons should refer to British royalty with correct British usage while the British court is allowed to refer to foreign royalty by British usage.
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  #745  
Old 06-19-2019, 10:13 PM
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Given that Casa Real consistently refer to 'SS MM Los reyes (y SS AA RR la princesa de Asturias y la infanta doña Sofia)', see for example this message of today, I am sure they are completely fine with the British royal family simply translating this to '(their majesties) the king and queen (of Spain)' - as the most literal translation (their majesties the kings is not correct in English).

In addition, I don't believe the Dutch royal house uses 'the king and queen of the Netherlands'; formally even 'queen Máxima of the Netherlands' isn't correct - but her 'own' organization uses it for her UNSGSA-work. Within the Netherlands they are mostly referred to as 'king Willem-Alexander and queen Máxima' - but in some cases also as the king and queen (see for example this recent message about last week's state visit). It seems they try to avoid the use of 'the queen' - as she isn't THE queen; but are fine with the combination of The king and queen. So, the use of the British in the CC seems consistent as well.
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  #746  
Old 06-19-2019, 10:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
I agree, and conceivably the Kings of Spain and the Netherlands may endorse that usage, at least when their wives are traveling in foreign countries (at any rate, I think the absence of the territorial designation with regard to a queen consort was a relatively late modification in both of these countries).

However, Iluvbertie listed a further example of Elizabeth II referring to her mother-in-law, Princess Aliki by Greek usage, as Princess Andrew, which cannot be justified by practicality. If it is the case that Queen Elizabeth II simply believes British usage is appropriate for foreign royals in the United Kingdom, then foreign royal courts would be justified by both fairness and practicality in referring to Princess Michael of Kent as Princess Marie-Christine of Kent, which allows the inhabitants of those countries to understand that the princess's name is Marie-Christine and not Michael.


For clarity's sake, I believe that would be entirely appropriate, but what would not be fair is the expectation that non-Britons should refer to British royalty with correct British usage while the British court is allowed to refer to foreign royalty by British usage.
I would see no reason why a foreign royal court wouldn't use their own way of doing things - if that was their desire - when referring to members of the British Royal Family.
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  #747  
Old 06-19-2019, 11:04 PM
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Not only Princess Andrew but also Princess Nicholas Of Greece and Denmark which was has she was styled at the wedding of Princess Elizabeth and Prince Philip.
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  #748  
Old 06-20-2019, 01:52 PM
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How were the Greek royals styled in Greece before the coup? Would MC be Princess Pavlos or Princess MC
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  #749  
Old 06-20-2019, 02:35 PM
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Surely it would be as it is in Denmark now. Crown Prince Pavlov and Crown Princess MC of Greece.
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  #750  
Old 06-20-2019, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Lumutqueen View Post
Surely it would be as it is in Denmark now. Crown Prince Pavlov and Crown Princess MC of Greece.

Queen Ingrid was titled “ Dronning af Danmark” whereas Queen Margrethe is “ Danmarks Dronning”. Both translate to “ Queen of Denmark “ in English , but the former is used for a Queen consort, whereas the latter is used for a reigning Queen.

Likewise, Princess Marie for example is “Prinsesse Marie af Danmark” ( Princess Marie of Denmark) whereas Princess Isabella for example is “Prinsesse Isabella til Danmark” (lit. Princess Isabella to Denmark) indicating that she is a princess by birth and in the line of succession to the Danish throne.

It is a quite clever and practical distinction.
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  #751  
Old 06-20-2019, 09:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Queen Ingrid was titled “ Dronning af Danmark” whereas Queen Margrethe is “ Danmarks Dronning”. Both translate to “ Queen of Denmark “ in English , but the former is used for a Queen consort, whereas the latter is used for a reigning Queen.

Likewise, Princess Marie for example is “Prinsesse Marie af Danmark” ( Princess Marie of Denmark) whereas Princess Isabella for example is “Prinsesse Isabella til Danmark” (lit. Princess Isabella to Denmark) indicating that she is a princess by birth and in the line of succession to the Danish throne.

It is a quite clever and practical distinction.
There is a slight difference. While both translate into English as "Queen of Denmark" the latter "Danmarks Dronning" could also translate as "Denmark's Queen". In Sweden we have something similar - while the King, Queen & Crown Princess are all "Sveriges Konung, Drottning & Kronprinsessa" with the literal translation of "Sweden's King, Queen & Crown Princess" the rest of the family members are "Prince/ss of Sweden"
Funnily enough this is an innovation in both countries since both Queen Margrethe and King Carl Gustav laid all the traditional titles to rest when ascending their thrones. Since this happened within a year of each other and both countries laid claim to some of the same titles one can speculate if they influenced each other on the issue.
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  #752  
Old 06-21-2019, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Ish View Post
According to Wikipedia Infante/Infanta is a title and rank held by the children of the monarch who are not the heir to the throne, the male-line grandchildren of the reigning monarch, and the wives of the above.

Carlos, Duke of Calabria and his mother, Alice of Bouron-Parma have also been given the title of Infante/a of Spain, because they represent a historical link to the Spanish crown [...]
That's not true.

Before 1987 the title and rank of Infante/Infanta of Spain was held by all female-line and male-line grandchildren, and by the husbands and wives, from dynastic, equal marriages.

Decrees giving the title of Infante to members of the royal family.


Alice of Bourbon-Parma was an Infanta of Spain by right of being the dynastic wife of a female-line grandson of King Alfonso XII.

The royal decree of 1987 issued by King Juan Carlos prevented future spouses and children of Infantes and Infantas, no matter their gender or rank, from receiving the title of Infante/Infanta of Spain.
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  #753  
Old 06-21-2019, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
That's not true.

Before 1987 the title and rank of Infante/Infanta of Spain was held by all female-line and male-line grandchildren, and by the husbands and wives, from dynastic, equal marriages.

Decrees giving the title of Infante to members of the royal family.


Alice of Bourbon-Parma was an Infanta of Spain by right of being the dynastic wife of a female-line grandson of King Alfonso XII.

The royal decree of 1987 issued by King Juan Carlos prevented future spouses and children of Infantes and Infantas, no matter their gender or rank, from receiving the title of Infante/Infanta of Spain.

But the late Countess of Barcelona was no Infanta. Despite the fact that she was an equal spouse of an Infante.
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  #754  
Old 06-21-2019, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
That's not true.

Before 1987 the title and rank of Infante/Infanta of Spain was held by all female-line and male-line grandchildren, and by the husbands and wives, from dynastic, equal marriages.

Decrees giving the title of Infante to members of the royal family.


Alice of Bourbon-Parma was an Infanta of Spain by right of being the dynastic wife of a female-line grandson of King Alfonso XII.

The royal decree of 1987 issued by King Juan Carlos prevented future spouses and children of Infantes and Infantas, no matter their gender or rank, from receiving the title of Infante/Infanta of Spain.

However, the King can still give the title of Infante/Infanta e.g. to children of Infantes/Infantas or spouses thereof by a separate royal decree. The difference is that, in the latter case, the person receiving the title bears the style only of Highness, whereas Infantes/Infantas by birth (children of the King other than the Prince of Asturias and children of the Prince of Asturias) bear the style of Royal Highness instead.
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  #755  
Old 06-21-2019, 09:23 AM
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I might be wrong but wasn't the late Countess of Barcelona an 'Infanta by marriage' ?

Her Full Style/Title was: Her Royal Highness Doña María de las Mercedes Cristina Isabel Luisa Carolina Victoria de Borbon y Orleans, Countess of Barcelona, ​​Infanta of Spain, Princess of Bourbon Two Sicilies, Princess of the House of Bourbon.
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  #756  
Old 06-21-2019, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Stefan View Post
But the late Countess of Barcelona was no Infanta. Despite the fact that she was an equal spouse of an Infante.
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Originally Posted by An Ard Ri View Post
I might be wrong but wasn't the late Countess of Barcelona an 'Infanta by marriage' ?

Her Full Style/Title was: Her Royal Highness Doña María de las Mercedes Cristina Isabel Luisa Carolina Victoria de Borbon y Orleans, Countess of Barcelona, ​​Infanta of Spain, Princess of Bourbon Two Sicilies, Princess of the House of Bourbon.
Her husband (the future Count of Barcelona) was no longer an Infante at the time of their marriage in 1935. The family deemed him to be the Prince of Asturias from 1933, when his older brothers renounced their dynastic rights.

The Spanish convention is that the title of Prince or King replaces the title of Infante, as can be seen in the wording of the 1987 royal decree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
However, the King can still give the title of Infante/Infanta e.g. to children of Infantes/Infantas or spouses thereof by a separate royal decree. The difference is that, in the latter case, the person receiving the title bears the style only of Highness, whereas Infantes/Infantas by birth (children of the King other than the Prince of Asturias and children of the Prince of Asturias) bear the style of Royal Highness instead.
True. The decree of 1987 stipulates, however, that creations of this nature should be given only in exceptional circumstances, so Queen Leonor would probably be required to repeal the decree of 1987 if she wished to revert to the tradition of all grandchildren from dynastic marriages being Infantes/Infantas.
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  #757  
Old 06-21-2019, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Her husband (the future Count of Barcelona) was no longer an Infante at the time of their marriage in 1935. The family deemed him to be the Prince of Asturias from 1933, when his older brothers renounced their dynastic rights.

The Spanish convention is that the title of Prince or King replaces the title of Infante, as can be seen in the wording of the 1987 royal decree.


But after he succeeded his fatehr as head of the Royal House he was never a Prince nor a King. The Royal Decree does not mention that a Count of Barcelona is no Infante. And he was also often to referred as Infate. So why not also his wife.

And why is it that the Prince of Asturias is no Infante? Nothing of Spain?

In the UK the Prince of Wales is till also a Prince of the Uk, The same for the Netherlands and Belgium.
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  #758  
Old 06-21-2019, 10:25 AM
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Felipe was styled His Royal Highness The Infante Felipe of Spain up until 1977 when the title of Prince of Asturias was conferred on him
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  #759  
Old 06-21-2019, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Stefan View Post
But after he succeeded his fatehr as head of the Royal House he was never a Prince nor a King. The Royal Decree does not mention that a Count of Barcelona is no Infante. And he was also often to referred as Infate. So why not also his wife.

And why is it that the Prince of Asturias is no Infante? Nothing of Spain?

In the UK the Prince of Wales is till also a Prince of the Uk, The same for the Netherlands and Belgium.

In Spain, the heir (presumptive) to the Crown is always a Prince. The children of the King who do not hold the dignity of Prince and the children of a Prince are called Infantes. A Prince has higher rank than an Infante, although both are HRHs.



Leonor for example was born an Infanta as the daughter of the Prince of Asturias. The moment she became the heiress to the Crown, she automatically became a Princess and no longer an Infanta.


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Originally Posted by An Ard Ri View Post
Felipe was styled His Royal Highness The Infante Felipe of Spain up until 1977 when the title of Prince of Asturias was conferred on him
The constitution of 1978 made the title of Prince of Asturias automatic for the heir presumptive to the Crown, so there is no longer a need to confer it separately as it was done for Felipe in 1977. The automatic use of the title of Prince.( or Princess) of Asturias by the heir was confirmed by the royal decree of 1987 and, as Tatiana Maria said, the title of Prince of Asturias, once in use, supersedes a previous title of Infante.

Juan Carlos and his family, including his parents, were in a sort of legal limbo when it comes to Royal styles and titles given the special circumstances created by the fall of the monarchy in the 1930s and the subsequent emergence of the Franco regime ( technically a permanent regency) after the end of the Second Republic. Juan Carlos for example was never Prince of Asturias although Franco at one point made him a “ Prince of Spain”, which is not a traditional Spanish royal title. Likewise, JC’s children were called infante/infantas by tradition , based on the custom at the time of the last previous king, but without a clear legal basis.

The royal decree of 1987 cleared that up and not only put in place clear legal rules for royal titles and styles of people born thereafter, but also confirmed the traditional titles that were in use by JC’s parents sisters and daughters. Felipe’s title of Prince of Asturias, on the other hand, had already been confirmed before by the constitution itself as I explained before.
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  #760  
Old 06-21-2019, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
In Spain, the heir (presumptive) to the Crown is always a Prince. The children of the King who do not hold the dignity of Prince and the children of a Prince are called Infantes. A Prince has higher rank than an Infante, although both are HRHs.



Leonor for example was born an Infanta as the daughter of the Prince of Asturias. The moment she became the heiress to the Crown, she automatically became a Princess and no longer an Infanta.

I know that but why it is not that the Heir is HRH Infanta Sofia of Spain, Princess of Asturias like it is in other monarchies. So the Heir would be a Prince/Princess but still of Spain
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