The Royal Forums Coat of Arms


Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #721  
Old 10-09-2014, 01:58 PM
Majesty
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: *******, Canada
Posts: 8,912
Thank you for the answer Muhler. There is a documentary about QEII during her Jubilee year and a clip where the Queen is speaking to PM David Cameron about the econonic crisis in Greece and the Queen says to her Prime Minister "The King rang me about it, he is quite concerned"

It seemed odd to me at least that she referred to Constantine as King let alone acknowledge they talked about the economic conditions in Greece.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #722  
Old 10-09-2014, 02:15 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Herefordshire, United Kingdom
Posts: 3,397
Queen Elizabeth 11 has the same view as Queen Margarethe 11 - 'once a majesty, always a majesty...
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #723  
Old 10-09-2014, 02:15 PM
Skippyboo's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Atlanta, United States
Posts: 4,152
In one of the episodes of the Diamond Queen that Andrew Marr did, it had footage from the lunch at Windsor with all the other monarchs. When they did the photo of the monarchs with the Queen, they did it by oldest to newest. Constantine and Michael of Romania both ex Kings were on either side of Elizabeth.


Sent from my iPhone using The Royals Community
Reply With Quote
  #724  
Old 10-09-2014, 02:23 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Torrance, United States
Posts: 4,481
Well this may have been a way to avoid a family feud considering that Phillip is a cousin to both Michael and Constantine.
Reply With Quote
  #725  
Old 10-09-2014, 02:32 PM
Ish's Avatar
Ish Ish is offline
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 4,107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudolph View Post
I have a question. Do former monarchies ever make formal complaints about their royals continuing to be granted courtesies in other countries. Like does the government of Greece ever say to Britain or Denmark stop treating Constantine as if he is still royal?
I don't think they would ever complain to a foreign country about how their former royals are being treated, provided as Muhler pointed out, they're not being treated like they're actual representatives of the nation still (at least, if they're not; some non-reigning monarchs do have roles in their countries now; Michael I of Romania and Grand Duchess Maria both come to mind here. QEII is well within her rights to talk to Constantine II about the situation in Greece and to mention it to her PM, provided that they don't then treat his views as anything other than a private individual voicing concern about a situation. It does seem odd that that clip would be chosen to air, but it doesn't seem odd at all that she refers to Constantine as the King (he is; in her view once a majesty always a majesty, unless you abdicate under situations like Beatrix of the Netherlands), or that she would have spoken to him about the situation in Greece and mentioned it to her PM - why wouldn't she speak to a friend and family member about a situation in his home country?

Constantine has clashed with the Greek government in regards to his titles and passport. He recognizes the Republic, but until 1994 had a passport that titled him as Constantine, former King of the Hellenes." In 1994 Greece stripped him of his citizenship, passport, and property, saying that he could only be granted a Greek passport if he adopted a surname, and he refuses to do so saying that ""I don't have a name - my family doesn't have a name." Constantine no longer uses the title "King of the Hellenes" at all, instead styling himself King Constantine (comparable to how Albert II of Belgium is styled post-abdication), and uses a Danish diplomatic passport as a descendant of Christian IX (Denmark issues diplomatic passports to any such descendants if they request one) as "Constantine de Grecia".

In Austria the nobility, noble privileges, noble titles, and noble names were abolished in 1919, but only within Austria. Therefore, according to Austrian law it is illegal for Karl von Habsburg to go by "von Habsburg" - his legal name in Austria is Karl Habsburg-Lothringen, as "von" is a noble name. However, as a German citizen (he was born in Germany) his surname is "von Habsburg" and in some places he's recognized as Archduke Karl of Austria (he was actually baptized as such in Bavaria). The Austrians don't seem to mind, provided as he's not using the title in Austria.
Reply With Quote
  #726  
Old 10-09-2014, 02:45 PM
Skippyboo's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Atlanta, United States
Posts: 4,152
When Constantine dies, does CP Pavlos stay how is titled now? I don't see how he can become King when Greece is a republic.


Sent from my iPhone using The Royals Community
Reply With Quote
  #727  
Old 10-09-2014, 03:14 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Herefordshire, United Kingdom
Posts: 3,397
He will remain titular Crown Prince, Skippyboo , just as Crown Prince Alexander of Yugoslavia is...
Reply With Quote
  #728  
Old 10-09-2014, 03:22 PM
Muhler's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Eastern Jutland, Denmark
Posts: 13,664
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippyboo View Post
When Constantine dies, does CP Pavlos stay how is titled now? I don't see how he can become King when Greece is a republic.


Sent from my iPhone using The Royals Community
That will be interesting to learn!

In any way I guess he will remain a pretender of some sort but no more, unless Greece reintroduce the monarchy.
In DK I guess he will continue to be treated as a prince, but no red carpet-treatment though
Pavlos will never have been crowned nor at any time officially recogniced as a monarch, so the once a majesty always a majesty will most likely not apply.
Reply With Quote
  #729  
Old 10-09-2014, 04:12 PM
Nobility
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Detroit, United States
Posts: 368
Quote:
Originally Posted by wyevale View Post
Queen Elizabeth 11 has the same view as Queen Margarethe 11 - 'once a majesty, always a majesty...

I'm guessing Elizabeth II didn't feel that way about the Duke of Windsor.
Reply With Quote
  #730  
Old 10-09-2014, 04:24 PM
Ish's Avatar
Ish Ish is offline
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 4,107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noble Consort Ming View Post
I'm guessing Elizabeth II didn't feel that way about the Duke of Windsor.

There's a different attitude about monarchs who abdicate without the monarchy ending, and monarchs who are deposed.

Edward VIII of the UK, Beatrix of the Netherlands, Carol II of Romania, Marie-Adelaide of Luxembourg, etc, are all people who abdicated (either voluntarily or by force) and yet the monarchy continued in their former realms. Michael I of Romania, Constantine II of Greece, etc, are all individuals who were overthrown and their realms ceased to be realms. Recognizing them as continuing to be Majesties while not heads of states is a slightly different matter.
Reply With Quote
  #731  
Old 01-29-2017, 11:47 AM
Majesty
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: *******, Canada
Posts: 8,912
In 1917 King George V codified the style and title of prince/ss in Britain

He referred to it in Letters Patent as the 'style, title or attribute' of Royal Highness and the 'titular dignity' of Prince or Princess.

I'm wondering do other royal families use similar language or is it a matter for the government to decide the wording of titles.
Reply With Quote
  #732  
Old 01-29-2017, 01:26 PM
Majesty
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Pittsburgh, United States
Posts: 6,340
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudolph View Post
In 1917 King George V codified the styles and titles of prince/ss in Britain

He referred to it in Letters Patent as the 'style, title or attribute' of Royal Highness and the 'titular dignity' of Prince or Princess.

I'm wondering do other royal families use similar language or is it a matter for the government to decide the wording of titles.
I am not sure if I understood your question.

Anyway, in Belgium and in Spain, royal titles and styles are regulated by royal decrees, but, since the constitution says that all royal decrees must be countersigned by one or more responsible ministers, they are effectively regulated by the government.

In the Netherlands, on the other hand, royal titles and styles are regulated by an act of parliament, which was introduced in the Lower House by the ministers on behalf of the King (like most public laws BTW). The act of parliament in question, however, grants the King a discretionary power to confer some royal titles (like Prins der Nederlanden or Prins van Oranje-Nassau) on certain categories of people (e.g. the wife of the Prince of Orange, or the monarch's children other than the heir to the throne). As in Belgium and in Spain though, royal decrees must be countersigned by ministers, so, again, it is up to the government to decide who gets a titlle within the constraints set out in the law.

In any case though, Belgian, Spanish or Dutch titles such as e.g. as "Prince/Princesse de Belgique", "Duc/Duchesse de Brabant", "Príncipe/Princesa de Asturias", "Infante/Infanta de España", "Prins/Prinses der Nederlanden". "Prins/Prinses van Oranje" etc, are not arbitrary, but rather defined in appropriate legal instruments with those exact names.

The Scandinavian countries , compared to the former aformentioned countries, seem to be a little bit more chaotic. Apparently, any person in the line of succession (currently only descendants of King Carl XVI Gustaf who are not disqualified by law) can be a prince or princess of Sweden, but the actual title the person gets seems to be a discretion of the Royal Court. For example, before 1980, when succession was still agnatic, all male descendants of King Karl XIV Johan had the title of Sveriges Arvfurste (i.e. hereditary prince of Sweden), with the exception of the heir to the throne who was the Sveriges Kronprins; a female descendant in male line of King Karl XIV Johan or the wife of a prince was, however, entitled a Sveriges Prinsessa. After 1980, those titles changed: the heir is still called Sveriges Kronprins (actually, now a Kronprinsessa), but the new name for other men and women in the line of succession, as well as wives of princes and the husband of the Crown Princess, is simply Prins av Sverige or Prinsessa av Sverige. None of those titles are regulated by law (other than indirectly by the Act of Succession) or by an specifc executive order.

Furthermore, King Carl XVI Gustaf himself adopted a new simplified title ("Sveriges Konung") in his declaration of accession to the throne (before him, his predecessors called themselves "med Guds Nåde Sveriges, Götes och Vendes Konung"); apparently it is his choice to call himself whatever he wants to be called, unlike in Spain or Belgium for example where the title of the King is defined in law (in Spain, it is actually part of the constitution).

I am not sure about Denmark, but I believe that , as in Sweden, royal styles and titles are not regulated by law there either. The Danish court uses the title Prins/Prinsesse til Danmark to refer to all people who are in the line of succession, and Prins/Prinsesse af Danmark to refer to wives of princes in the line of succession and to members of collateral lines of the dynasty, who since 1953, have not been part of the line of succession (e.g. descendants in male line of King Christian IX who do not also descend from King Christian X and Queen Alexandrine). But, again , those titles seem to be arbitrary as is BTW Queen Margrethe II's own title of Danmarks Dronning, which she also chose for herself (her father before her called himself, in a dispute of claims with the Swedes and other countries, "af Guds Nåde Konge til Danmark, de Venders og Goters, Hertug til Slesvig, Holsten, Stormarn, Ditmarsken, Lauenborg og Oldenborg"

Furthermore, both in Denmark and in Sweden, when a prince or princess is excluded from the line of succession, e,g. because they married without consent, he or she also lose their royal titles and styles,although that seems to be also arbitrary. In Belgium, by contrast, as shown in the examples of Prince Alexandre and, more recently, for a brief period of time, Prince Amedeo, loss of succession rights seems to be dissociated from royal titles and styles. In the Netherlands, certain titles like "prince of the Netherlands" are lost though with loss of succession rights, but that is not arbitrary as in Denmark and Sweden, but rather mandated by law as the law ties those titles to membership of the Royal House, and membership of the Royal House, in turn, is tied to succession rights.
Reply With Quote
  #733  
Old 01-29-2017, 01:32 PM
Majesty
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: *******, Canada
Posts: 8,912
^^^ Thanks

So the language used by King George V, 'style, title or attribute' and 'titular dignity' is a British thing and not used by other royal houses
Reply With Quote
  #734  
Old 01-29-2017, 01:51 PM
Majesty
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Pittsburgh, United States
Posts: 6,340
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudolph View Post
^^^ Thanks

So the language used by King George V, 'style, title or attribute' and 'titular dignity' is a British thing and not used by other royal houses
I am not sure. I think that has to do more with a dictionary definition of what " title, style, attributes and dignity" mean in each language, rather than with conventions of the Royal House.

For example, in Spain, the royal decree 1368/1987, if I am not mistaken, mentions the "dignidad" (dignity ) of "Príncipe de Asturias" or "Infante", but the "tratamiento" (i.e. form of address, maybe style ?) of "Alteza Real" (Royal Highness). It also mentions other "títulos" (titles) that may belong to the Crown. The preamble to the decree itself says that it is about "Régimen de títulos, tratamientos y honores de la Familia Real y la Regencia". So, I would say those distinctions are also made in Spanish,
Reply With Quote
  #735  
Old 01-29-2017, 02:25 PM
Muhler's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Eastern Jutland, Denmark
Posts: 13,664
Correct, Mbruno.

In DK it's the Monarch who decide the titles.
The only exception being that of the heir. I.e. the Crown Prince/ss. The Monarch cannot change or strip the heir of that title, nor by-pass the heir.

In theory the Monarch does not even have to bestow those in the line of succession with the title of Prince/ss to Denmark. Even if their place is secured by the Law of Succession.
But it would be nothing short of sensational is such a person did not get the title of Prince/ss to Denmark, unless that person is officially deemed unfit or renounce his/her place.
Reply With Quote
  #736  
Old 01-30-2017, 01:39 PM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: St Thomas, U.S. Minor Outlying Islands
Posts: 2,869
But the Constitution of Denmark refers to the heir to the throne as "Tronfølger" instead of "Kronprins(esse)" and does not include regulations on his or her title.

In addition to Mbruno's informative post: In Spain, the Netherlands, and Belgium, there are titles which are conferred by royal decrees or acts of Parliament, but there are also courtesy titles like those of Princess Laurentien of the Netherlands or Infanta Alicia of Spain.
Reply With Quote
  #737  
Old 06-19-2019, 03:58 PM
Majesty
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Pittsburgh, United States
Posts: 6,340
Quote:
Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
Two first names are overrepresented among the 24 knights and ladies. Out of 3 ladies two are called Mary (the other Elizabeth - Eliza for short) and out of 20 knights there are 4 Johns - most others also have traditional names (Edwin, Timothy, James, Peter, Antony, Richard, Thomas, Nicholas, Michael, Graham (Jock), Frederick (Robin), Mervyn, Charles, David, Alan).



I wish the Court Circular and official notes from the British court would stop using designations such as "the King and Queen of Spain" , which, as discussed by many posters here, are incorrect. Outside Spain, the most correct citation would be "The King of Spain and Queen Letizia".



Of course, inside Spain, they are just "The King and The Queen".
Reply With Quote
  #738  
Old 06-19-2019, 04:13 PM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Netherlands
Posts: 10,526
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
I wish the Court Circular and official notes from the British court would stop using designations such as "the King and Queen of Spain" , which, as discussed by many posters here, are incorrect. Outside Spain, the most correct citation would be "The King of Spain and Queen Letizia".



Of course, inside Spain, they are just "The King and The Queen".
In the Netherlands it is The King and "Queen Máxima", as the latter one is formally no Queen at all but only uses a titre de courtoisie.
Reply With Quote
  #739  
Old 06-19-2019, 06:51 PM
Iluvbertie's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Bathurst, Australia
Posts: 12,825
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
I wish the Court Circular and official notes from the British court would stop using designations such as "the King and Queen of Spain" , which, as discussed by many posters here, are incorrect. Outside Spain, the most correct citation would be "The King of Spain and Queen Letizia".



Of course, inside Spain, they are just "The King and The Queen".
As The Court Circular is approved by Queen Elizabeth II I am sure she knows how and why to refer to her counterparts and if she believed it was wrong she would correct it.

You are basically saying that the longest serving monarch doesn't know how to refer to her counterparts when they are in the UK.

She uses the UK usage which is totally appropriate in the UK. It is the same thing with Princess male name - a UK thing. Even her mother-in-law was HRH Princess Andrew in the UK even though she had been born as Princess Alice of Hesse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Princess Larisa View Post
Court Circular 17th June:
Windsor Castle

The Queen, accompanied by The Prince of Wales, The Duke of York, The Earl of Wessex, The Princess Royal, The Duke of Gloucester, The Duke of Kent and Princess Alexandra, the Hon Lady Ogilvy, today held a Chapter of the Most Noble Order of the Garter in the Throne Room, Windsor Castle.

The Duchess of Cornwall, The Countess of Wessex, Vice Admiral Sir Tim Laurence, The Duchess of Gloucester, The King and Queen of Spain and The King and Queen of the Netherlands were present.

Lady Mary Peters and the Marquess of Salisbury were present.

The following Knights Companion were present: the Duke of Abercorn, Field Marshal the Lord Bramall, the Lord Sainsbury of Preston Candover, Sir Timothy Colman, Sir Antony Acland, the Lord Butler of Brockwell, the Lord Morris of Aberavon, the Rt Hon Sir John Major, the Lord Luce, Sir Thomas Dunne, the Lord Phillips of Worth Matravers, Admiral of the Fleet the Lord Boyce, Marshal of the Royal Air Force the Lord Stirrup, the Lady Manningham Buller, the Lord King of Lothbury, the Lord Shuttleworth, Sir David Brewer, the Viscount Brookeborough and Lady Mary Fagan.

The Officers of the Order were: the Bishop of Winchester (Prelate), the Dean of Windsor (Register), Mr Thomas Woodcock (Garter), Miss Sarah Clarke (Lady Usher of the Black Rod) and Mr Patric Dickinson (Secretary).

Lieutenant Colonel Stephen Segrave (Secretary, Central Chancery of the Orders of Knighthood), Mr Max Bowen (Page of Honour) and Mr Robert Bruce (Page of Honour) were in attendance.

The Queen welcomed The King of Spain and The King of the Netherlands as Extra Knights Companion of the Most Noble Order of the Garter.

Her Majesty invested Lady Mary Peters with the Insignia of a Lady Companion of the Most Noble Order of the Garter and the Marquess of Salisbury with the Insignia of a Knight Companion of the Most Noble Order of the Garter.

The Queen later gave a Luncheon Party for the Companions of the Most Noble Order of the Garter at which The Prince of Wales and The Duchess of Cornwall, The Duke of York, The Earl and Countess of Wessex, The Princess Royal and Vice Admiral Sir Tim Laurence, The Duke and Duchess of Gloucester, The Duke of Kent and Princess Alexandra, the Hon Lady Ogilvy were present.

The King and Queen of Spain and The King and Queen of the Netherlands were also present.

The following had the honour of being invited: the Duke of Abercorn and the Lady Sophie Hamilton, Field Marshal the Lord Bramall, the Lord and Lady Sainsbury of Preston Candover, Sir Timothy Colman and Mrs Peter Troughton, Sir Anthony and Lady Acland, the Lord and Lady Butler of Brockwell, the Lord Morris of Aberavon and the Hon Mrs Cross, the Rt Hon Sir John Major and Dame Norma Major, the Lord Luce, Sir Thomas and Lady Dunne, the Lord and Lady Phillips of Worth Matravers, Admiral of the Fleet the Lord Boyce and the Hon Mrs Barling, Marshal of the Royal Air Force the Lord and Lady Stirrup, the Baroness Manningham-Buller, the Lord and Lady King of Lothbury, the Lord and Lady Shuttleworth, Sir David and Lady Brewer, the Viscount and Viscountess Brookeborough, Lady Mary Fagan and Captain Christopher Fagan, Lady Mary Peters and Mr John Peters, the Marquess and Marchioness of Salisbury, the Bishop of Winchester, the Dean of Windsor, Mr Thomas Woodcock, Miss Sarah Clarke, Mr Patric Dickinson, Lieutenant Colonel Stephen Segrave, Mr Max Bowen and Mr Robert Bruce.

An Installation Service was held in St George’s Chapel this afternoon at which The King of Spain and The King of the Netherlands were installed as an Extra Knights Companion of the Most Noble Order of the Garter and Lady Mary Peters and the Marquess of Salisbury were installed as a Lady Companion and a Knight Companion of the Most Noble Order of the Garter.

Her Majesty’s Body Guard of the Honourable Corps of Gentlemen at Arms and The Queen’s Body Guard of the Yeomen of the Guard were on duty in the Chapel.
Interesting that there is no mention of William and Catherine attending any part of the day. Although they were seen as attending the church service they were not added to the list of those attending the events inside the castle and so were not officially in attendance at all, all day.
Reply With Quote
  #740  
Old 06-19-2019, 07:10 PM
Majesty
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Pittsburgh, United States
Posts: 6,340
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
As The Court Circular is approved by Queen Elizabeth II I am sure she knows how and why to refer to her counterparts and if she believed it was wrong she would correct it.

You are basically saying that the longest serving monarch doesn't know how to refer to her counterparts when they are in the UK.

She uses the UK usage which is totally appropriate in the UK. It is the same thing with Princess male name - a UK thing. Even her mother-in-law was HRH Princess Andrew in the UK even though she had been born as Princess Alice of Hesse.
Spanish law is pretty clear ( royal decree 1368/1987 ) : the holder of the Spanish Crown has the title of “King or Queen of Spain” and the style of Majesty.. The wife of the King of Spain, on the other hand, has the title of “Queen” ( not “ Queen of Spain”) and the style of Majesty. Finally, the husband of the Queen of Spain has the title only of “Prince” with the style “Royal Highness”.

D. Felipe VI de Borbón y Grecia, as the current holder of the Spanish Crown is, therefore, “HM The King of Spain”. His wife is “HM Queen Letizia” ( in fact, in Spanish, more commonly S.M. la reina doña Letizia”).

British usage, whatever that might be, is not relevant here because the titles and styles of foreign royals are not defined by British custom, but rather by the laws and customs of their own respective countries.
Neither Letizia , nor Maxima, nor Mathilde BTW are Queens of [ country X] in their own domestic law or custom. Silvia Sommerlath is , however, Queen of Sweden because that is the title she has in Sweden itself (Sveriges Drottning).
__________________

Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Questions about British Styles and Titles summrbrew2 British Royals 5357 10-03-2020 04:43 AM
Diana's Styles and Titles florawindsor Diana, Princess of Wales (1961-1997) 894 11-26-2019 11:04 PM
Titles and Styles of Harry, his Future Wife and Children Aussie Princess The Duke and Duchess of Sussex and Family 1897 11-29-2017 03:13 AM




Popular Tags
#royalrelatives #royalgenes abdication anastasia 2020 armstrong-jones baby names bangladesh baptism biography bridal gown brownbitcoinqueen canada carolin chittagong clarence house coronavirus dna dubai duke of sussex dutch royal family earl of snowdon emperor facts fantasy movie general news thread george vi heraldry hill historical drama history hochberg introduction jumma kent languages list of rulers luxembourg mail mary: crown princess of denmark northern ireland norway history palestine pless popularity prince dimitri princess alexia (2005 -) princess chulabhorn princess dita princess of orange queen consort queen mathilde royal court royal dress-ups royal jewels royal spouse royalty royalty of taiwan royal wedding royal wedding gown russian court dress settings startling new evidence stuart swedish queen thailand tips tracts uae customs united kingdom united states of america von hofmannsthal


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:40 AM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2020
Jelsoft Enterprises
×