Non-British Styles and Titles

[qzwxec]

Originally Posted by GrandDuchess

In Sweden, it is also Monarch that descides about titles for members of the Royal Family. There has been a lot of discussion about the titles of the coming husbands of Crown Princess Victoria and Princess Madeleine, and also of Prince Carl Philip. No one know how it will be until the day of the announcement for it comes...

Well we know now.....HRH Prince Daniel, Duke Consort of Västergötland

[Lumutqueen]

Originally Posted by qzwxec

Well we know now.....HRH Prince Daniel, Duke Consort of of Västergötland

You do realise you're answering questions from 8 years ago?

[qzwxec]

Originally Posted by COESpiral

Why is Albert a Prince of Monaco but not a King?...

Well Albert if he wished, could declare himself "King" or even "Emperor" I suppose, but it would look like frivolous aggrandizement. Just a few years ago the Emir of Bahrain, "upgraded" himself to "King". It was very silly but he did it anyways. Some have said he wasn't happy just being a "Highness" and wanted to be a "Majesty". Rather asinine in today's world, if you ask me.

Originally Posted by Artemisia

The Russian style "Ваше Сиятельство" (literally - Your Illustriousness), used by members of some Russian Princely (but not Imperial) families, is also sometimes translated Your Illustrious Highness, although a more accurate translation in terms of ranking would be Serene Highness.

This has always been a curiosity of mine, and I have never seen a definitive answer. How does one address a Russian Prince ? How does one address a Russian Count ?

My Prince, Your Honor, Your Excellency or Your Serene Highness ? It's always very vague.

How about a Russian Count ? My Count, Your Honor, or Your Excellency ?

Anyone want to discuss ?

[Artemisia]

- Russian Grand Dukes of Grand Duchesses (children and male-line grandchildren of the Emperor) were addressed to as "Его/Её Императорское Высочество" - "His/Her Imperial Highness".

- Male-line great-grandchildren of the Emperor usually had the style of "Его/Её Высочество" - "His/Her Highness".

- Russian Princes and Princesses (who are not typically members of the Imperial Family but members of Princely families) were addressed to as "Его/Её Сиятельство" - "His/Her Your Illustriousness (or "Your Illustrious Highness"). That's a direct translation: a more accurate styling would be the rather more usual "Serene Highness".

- Russian nobles (Counts, Barons, etc) were usually addressed to as "Сиятельство" - "Illustriousness".

- Representatives of what could be called Russian gentry (non-titled landlords - "помещики", "дворяне", etc.) were often addressed to as "Господин" - roughly, "Sir".

[Super Baroness]

I have a question in regards to the Grand Ducal Family of Luxembourg and style of Royal Highness. I’ve been reading Wikipedia on the topic, so forgive me if the information I’ve gathered is wrong!

I was reading the page on Grand Duchess Charlotte, and was interested to read that after her marriage to HRH Prince Felix of Bourbon-Parma, “their lineal descent was raised in style from Grand Ducal Highness to Royal Highness.” Other pages tell me that the Grand Dukes/Duchesses of Luxembourg as well as their heir apparent have always been HRHs, however, before Charlotte’s marriage to Felix, other members of the family (i.e. the Grand Duke's other children) were only Grand Ducal Highnesses.

After Charlotte abdicated her son Jean became Grand Duke, then his son Henri, and in the future Guillaume. All of Jean’s children are HRH, as are Henri’s, because it is passing through the male line. However, I wonder what will happen when it passes through the female line. For instance, if Guillaume’s first born is a girl, I’m assuming she will be HRH her whole life – from being born to the heir apparent, then becoming the heir apparent, then presumably becoming the Grand Duchess. But what about her children? (Ignoring the heir, which is HRH anyway) Will they be HRH or Grand Ducal Highnesses?

Sorry if I’ve got this all wrong, I am just very curious about styles and titles and love to learn something new.

[Warren]

Originally Posted by Super Baroness

...But what about her children? (Ignoring the heir, which is HRH anyway) Will they be HRH or Grand Ducal Highnesses?

It's quite straightforward. When Grand Duchess Charlotte married the [royal] Prince of Bourbon-Parma their children were born Royal Highnesses and the Grand Ducal House became a Royal House. If a female becomes the Hereditary Grand Duchess of Luxembourg in her own right or inherits the throne of the Grand Duchy, all of her children will bear the style of Royal Highness.

The only Grand Ducal Highnesses remaining in the Gotha today are the cadet members of the Grand Ducal House of Baden.

[EmpressRouge]

Originally Posted by Warren

It's quite straightforward. When Grand Duchess Charlotte married the [royal] Prince of Bourbon-Parma their children were born Royal Highnesses and the Grand Ducal House became a Royal House. If a female becomes the Hereditary Grand Duchess of Luxembourg in her own right or inherits the throne of the Grand Duchy, all of her children will bear the style of Royal Highness.

And didn't the house of Bourbon-Parma get their HRH status from being descendants of the Spanish royal Bourbon house? Elisabeth Farnese's (the heiress who brought Parma to Bourbon rule) family were all styled HH.

[Warren]

The heiress of Parma, Elisabeth Farnese, was the wife of Felipe V, King of Spain and had been married to him for about 17 years when her uncle, the last Farnese Duke of Parma, died. She transmitted her rights to her son Carlos (who later became Carlos III, King of of Spain). When he conquered Naples and became King of Naples and Sicily he resigned the Duchy of Parma to his brother Felipe, now Duke of Parma in his own right and the founder of the Royal House of Bourbon-Parma.

As you mentioned, the Farnese Dukes were styled Highness, as were most reigning Ducal Houses of the Holy Roman Empire. The incoming Spanish Bourbon Prince, now renamed Filippo, assumed the Ducal title (albeit expanded to 'Duke of Parma, Piacenza and Guastalla') and naturally enough retained his style of Royal Highness. He thereby raised the tiny and relatively insignificant Duchy of Parma to royal status and founded, under the name of Bourbon-Parma, what was to become a very large, influential and well-connected royal dynasty.
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[HereditaryPrincess]

The BRF have a thread like this, so I was wondering if we could start a thread for the world's royals and nobles (Europe, Asia, Africa and the Middle East). Hopefully this thread will get longer with our questions and answers. If there's already a thread similar to this; then the mods/admins can move or delete it if they wish.

I have a question regarding the titles of Prince Constantijin and Prince Friso's children (of the Netherlands):

*Why don't Prince Constantijin and Prince Friso's children have princely titles? They're grandchildren of Queen Beatrix so I don't understand why they aren't Princes or Princesses. Also, Beatrix's sisters' children were granted the title of Prince/Princess along with the style of Highness.

And another question regarding the title of Sheikh:

*I see that some members of the Jordanian Royal Family are styled Sheikh, whilst Princess Haya has the title of Princess. I'm not very knowledgeable about the Jordanian Royals so that's why I'm asking this question.

Any answers would be appreciated.

[Princess Robijn]

Question 1:

Titles in the Netherlands are only automatic for the King (Queen), a former King of Queen, and the heir to the throne, as well as their respective spouses. In order to limit the amount of Princes and Princess, it was decided that the children of Prince Constantijn and Princess Laurentien were to be Count or Countess of Orange-Nassau and Jonkheer or Jonkvrouw van Amsberg. This was established at the time of their engagement/wedding.

The children of Princess Margriet were born in a different time. It is not relevant for the children of Constantijn.

If the Queen wanted, she could give them a title, as the title Prince or Princess of Orange-Nassau can be given to all members of the Royal House. This is a personal title. If a Prince, who is a member of the Royal House, looses his rights to be part of the Royal House (i.e. Prince Friso), there is still the option of a personal title of Prince or Princess of Orange-Nassau. It has to be decided within 3 months after loosing membership of the Royal House.

Question 2:

Princess Haya is a Princess, because she is born a Princess of Jordan. Meaning she is a Princess in her own right. It is unrelated to her marriage and the title of Sheikh(a)

[Artemisia]

Originally Posted by Princess Robijn

Question 1:

Titles in the Netherlands are only automatic for the King (Queen), a former King of Queen, and the heir to the throne, as well as their respective spouses. In order to limit the amount of Princes and Princess, it was decided that the children of Prince Constantijn and Princess Laurentien were to be Count or Countess of Orange-Nassau and Jonkheer or Jonkvrouw van Amsberg. This was established at the time of their engagement/wedding.

The children of Princess Margriet were born in a different time. It is not relevant for the children of Constantijn.
...

A question about membership in the Dutch Royal House. I noticed that while Constantijn and Laurentien's children are still in the Line of Succession, they are no longer members of the Royal House. Is there any particular reason for that? And, since they are no longer members of the Royal House and never held Princely titles, could they (in theory) be made Prince/Princesses of Orang-Nassau?

[HereditaryPrincess]

And another question:

*I'm quite confused about the titles of the German Princes of Reuss. The XIII Prince of Reuss has a son called Heinrich, and I do believe that he is titled as the XLII Prince of Reuss. If the title is hereditary, then wouldn't he be the XIV Prince of Reuss? Could someone who knows the answer explain? Thanks!

P.S- I hope I don't sound annoying by asking these questions! This topic has always confused me and I'm always willing to learn new facts and information.

[Meraude]

Originally Posted by HereditaryPrincess

I'm quite confused about the titles of the German Princes of Reuss. The XIII Prince of Reuss has a son called Heinrich, and I do believe that he is titled as the XLII Prince of Reuss. If the title is hereditary, then wouldn't he be the XIV Prince of Reuss? Could someone who knows the answer explain? Thanks!

There are several branches of the Prince of Reuss family, and I found this explanation of the numbering of the princes Heinrich:

The members of these branches of this line shared a numbering sequence which began and ended roughly as centuries began and ended. From: Reuss

So it seems to depend on in which century a prince Heinrich was born in, the father was born early in the century and there were only 12 Heinrich's before him, while his son was born later on in the century and by then there were already 41 Heinrich's in the family tree, so he became number XLII.

[Princess Robijn]

Originally Posted by Artemisia

A question about membership in the Dutch Royal House. I noticed that while Constantijn and Laurentien's children are still in the Line of Succession, they are no longer members of the Royal House. Is there any particular reason for that? And, since they are no longer members of the Royal House and never held Princely titles, could they (in theory) be made Prince/Princesses of Orang-Nassau?

It's called the principle of proximity of blood. In this case it means that only those within three degrees of kinship can succeed and that only those within two degrees of kinship are members of the Royal House. (Of course this also includes his or her spouse.)

Technically, the Queen can make them Princesses and Prince now (Article 9.2*), or King Willem-Alexander can make them Princesses and Prince within 3 months after becoming King. Of course it won't be an issue, because if the Queen wanted them to be Prince or Princess, she would have arranged it before the wedding of Prince Constantijn and Princess Laurentien.

If the Queen would choose to create them Princesses and Prince, IMO it would have to be confirmed by King Willem-Alexander as they will no longer be part of the Royal House after the abdication of Queen Beatrix. But I could be wrong about the need for confirmation. It's from the same law I mentioned HERE.** Within 3 months after loosing the right to be part of the Royal House, it has to be decided if the person it's about will have the personal title of Prince(ss) of Orange-Nassau. The law does not specify as to why a member of the Royal family loses his or her membership of the Royal House. (Article 9.3*)

The title Count of Orange-Nassau (& Jonkheer van Amsberg) is hereditary for the male line though.

* wetten.nl - Wet- en regelgeving - Wet lidmaatschap koninklijk huis - BWBR0013729 -- Google Translation
** Google Translation lists those eligible for the personal title of Prince or Princess of Orange-Nassau as members of the Royal family. This is incorrect. The correct translation of the Dutch "Koninklijk Huis" is Royal House.

[Artemisia]

Thank you for the excellent explanation, Princess Robijn!
I was aware of three degrees of kinship in regards to the succession but not two degrees of kinship in regards to membership in the Royal House.

To be honest though I still don't see why Constantijn's children won't be members of the House though. Aren't they within two degrees of kinship to Willem-Alexander? And if they aren't, how is Princess Margriet eligible to remain a member of the Royal House?

Willem-Alexander -> Prince Constantijn -> Constantijn's children
Willem-Alexander -> Queen Beatrix -> Princess Margriet

[Stefan]

As far as i know there was an exception made for Princess Margriet.
But if Constantijn's children will not be members of the Royal House why are Prince Maurits and Prince Bernhard now? They are related in the same way to Queen Beatrix then Constatijn's children to Willem-Alexander.

[Artemisia]

That is what confuses me. By an Act of Parliament, the members of the Royal House are:
- The Monarch and his/her spouse
- The former Monarch (who abdicated) and his/her spouse
- The members of the Royal Family in the Line of Succession and their spouses.

Maurits and Bernhard are currently in the Line of Succession and members of the Royal House. They will cease to be in the succession line upon Willem-Alexander's accession and will also automatically lose membership of the Royal House. Princess Margriet is and will remain both in the Line of Succession and member of the Royal House. So far everything is clear. But then Prince Constantijn's children will lose their membership in the Royal House upon Willem-Alexander's accession, even though they will remain in the Line of Succession. I just don't see the logic behind that.


Just for the record, I take the information Constantijn's children will cease to be members of the Royal House directly from the official website:

From that moment on, under the Membership of the Royal House Act, the children of Princess Margriet and Professor Pieter van Vollenhoven and the children of Prince Constantijn and Princess Laurentien will cease to be members of the Royal House

[Princess Robijn]

It's 2 different issues.

2 degrees of Kinships means the following in the case of Prince Constantijn's children:
Eloise, Claus-Casimir & Leonore -> Constantijn (1 degree) -> Beatrix (2 degrees) -> Willem-Alexander (3 degrees)

This means they will still be in line of succession to the throne (3 degrees of Kinship), but won't be members of the Royal House. (2 degrees)

As for Margriet and her oldest two sons. Article 3.1 from the Wet lidmaatschap Koninklijk Huis (link above) states that everyone who was an adult at the effective date of the Act (as well as their respective spouses) would remain a part of the Royal House as long as they were in line of succession. Therefor, Princess Margriet and her sons kept their membership of the Royal House with the Act of 2002. (With Prince Pieter-Christiaan and Prince Floris losing their memberships later on, because they didn't ask permission for their respective marriages.) Princess Margriet will remain in line of succession and therefor will also remain a member of the Royal House and Princes Maurits and Bernhard, no longer in line to the throne, will loose their membership of the Royal House.

I do agree with you (Artemisia) though. I see no logic in someone being in line of succession, but not a member of the Royal House. It's not like it's the line of succession to the British throne.

However, membership of the Royal House CAN be given by Royal Degree, providing he or she is in line of succession. (Membership can also be given to spouses) Article 4. This does need to be approved by the Raad van State (= Council of State)

Originally Posted by Artemisia

That is what confuses me. By an Act of Parliament, the members of the Royal House are:
- The members of the Royal Family in the Line of Succession and their spouses.

This is incorrect, it states:
Those who are in line of succession [and spouses], provided that they are not further then 2 degrees Kinship [apart from the King*]

* is insinuated, but not actually stated in Article 1a.

[Artemisia]

That makes sense now. Once more, thank you very much for the detailed explanation.
I have to say though it would have been more logical to apply the same three degrees of kinship rule to inclusion in both the Line of Succession and the Royal House.

[Warren]

The British Forums has a lengthy thread titled Questions about British Styles and Titles.

The current thread on the topic of styles and titles in 'Royal Ceremony and Protocol' was intended for Continental and other non-British royalty. However, of late there has been significant duplication of British-related questions in both threads.

To avoid such duplication and to help clarify the situation, the Royal Ceremony & Protocol thread has been amended to read 'Questions about [non-British] Styles and Titles'.

A number of recent posts discussing British styles and titles have been moved over to the thread in the British Forums.
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