Non-British Styles and Titles

[Madame Royale]

Of course, though as stated in my above post...

This isn't war torn Britain with a need to disassociate from ancestral distinctions

Britain was at war with Germany. That members, extended members, of the British royal family should have held germanic titles was no longer deemed appropriate and could have well caused domestic unrest on the home front if not addressed.

George V acted accordingly, resolved the issue and thus distanced himself, his family and the institution of monarchy from any such backlash.

As a testiment to his conviction, he went as far as to create the House of Windsor in replacement of the House of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha. This was a man who understood the constitutional signifcance of his extended familial associations.

[Iluvbertie]

Of course the fact that their men folk were fighting a war against Britain at the time didn't help their cause any.

I don't think Charles will remove the HRHs from the girls but I also don't think they will be seem very much - maybe at his coronation and that's about it. Trooping the Colour I suspect will be just Charles, Camilla and his family - maybe his siblings but not their children.

[Tsar bobo Iv]

was the difference between a grandduke and archduke

[Lumutqueen]

Originally Posted by Tsar bobo Iv

was the difference between a grandduke and archduke

Grand duke is higher than Arch duke. Archduke was created specifically for the ruler of the 'arch' of Austria. Type the titles into wiki :)

[Kit]

Wikipedia explains it pretty well:

The title of Archduke (feminine: Archduchess) (German: Erzherzog, feminine form: Erzherzogin) denotes a noble rank above Duke and below King, used only by princes of the Houses of Habsburg and Habsburg-Lorraine. Territory ruled by an archduke or archduchess is called an archduchy.

Though I wouldn't necessarily say that a Grandduke is higher than an Archduke, it's not as easy as that. As long as Austria was an Archduchy (until 1804) it was part of the Holy Roman Empire and ruled by the Archdukes or Archduchess in case of Maria Theresia and therefore at least equal to the title of an Grandduke. Also remember that the style His Imperial and Royal Highness goes with the title of an Archduke since 1867!

[Artemisia]

Originally Posted by Tsar bobo Iv

was the difference between a grandduke and archduke

Archduke is a title of Hapsburg Princes.
An Archduke is ranked higher than most nobles (including royal dukes), but below any sovereign (whatever the title).

There are two (main) types of Grand Dukes:
- Reigning Sovereigns of Grand Duchies (such as Grand Dukes of Luxembourg)
- Grand Dukes of the Russian Empire (usually, sons and male-line grandsons of Russian Emperors)

The different between the Austrian Archduke (the son of an Austrian Emperor) and Russian Grand Duke is virtually non-existent; they have equal ranks and precedence.
The difference between an Archduke and a Sovereign Grand Duke is quite substantial; while the former is merely a member of the Imperial Family, the latter is Head of State, and as such outranks an Archduke. Similarly, a Russian Grand Duke has lower rank and precedence than a Reigning Grand Duke.

[Kit]

Great explanation!

[auntie]

Interesting how Mary would take to curtsying to Princess benedikte, or Maxima to Princess Margriet/Christina, or MM to princess Raginald/Astrid

[Artemisia]

Originally Posted by auntie

Interesting how Mary would take to curtsying to Princess benedikte, or Maxima to Princess Margriet/Christina, or MM to princess Raginald/Astrid

I think it's about respect - not protocol.
Mette-Marit and Charlene also curtsied to Camilla - when they didn't have to. Just showing respect to somewhat older ladies.

[Noble Consort Ming]

Originally Posted by auntie

Interesting how Mary would take to curtsying to Princess benedikte, or Maxima to Princess Margriet/Christina, or MM to princess Raginald/Astrid

I think Mary's position is different because she was created a princess of Denmark in her own right. Camilla and Kate were not created princesses in their own right, they only have courtesy titles. Maxima was also created a princess in her own right although other women who married into the Dutch royal family have not been. I'm not sure about MM.

I think in the British royal family only Prince Philip has been created a prince in his own right.

[miche]

When was Mary created a princess in her own right?

[Artemisia]

Originally Posted by miche

When was Mary created a princess in her own right?

She isn't one. Mary's official title is Her Royal Highness The Crown Princess of Denmark, Countess of Monpezat; all those titles and styles come through her marriage to Prince Frederick and none is in her own right.

Crown Princess Maxima was created a Princess of the Netherlands and Princess of Orange-Nassau in her own right in 2002.
Neither Princess Mabel, nor Princess Laurentien were created Princess in their own right; their titles and styles are through their respective husbands.

Of other spouses of current European Heirs Apparent:
- Princess Mathilde is a Princess of Belgium in her own right; she was created one in 1999.
- Daniel is a Prince of Sweden in his own right; his style and title is His Royal Highness Prince Daniel of Sweden, Duke of Vastergotland - same as Princes by birth.

- Sophie of Liechtenstein is not a Princess of Liechtenstein in her own right; her titles and styles (other then those she was born with) are through her husband.
- Mette-Marit is not Princess of Norway in her own right; her titles and styles are through her husband.
- Princess Letizia is not a Princess of Spain her own right; her titles and styles are through her husband.

[Kit]

Mary is NOT a princess in her own right. Just look at the danish monarchy website in danish: she is a princess AF Denmark as is Marie versus Isabella and Josephine and Athena who are princesses TILL Denmark. Frederik, Joachim as well as Christian, Vincent, Nikolai, Felix and Henrik are also princes TILL Denmark. Only Henri is a prince in his own right because he was created one. There is no difference in the english version but there is a huge one in the danish version.

[Noble Consort Ming]

Thank you again for your info, Artemisia. For some reason I had always thought that Mary was a princess in her own right.

On the topic of the Danish princesses - if Alexandra was a not a princess in her own right why was she allowed to keep the title after her divorce? I know she went from HRH to HH but she was still a part of the royal family according to the official site at that time.

[Artemisia]

You are welcome.

Alexandra wasn't allowed to keep her title or style. As with other Danish Princesses by marriage, her titles were through her husband, not on her own. She remained "Princess Alexandra of Denmark" from 2005 to 2007 (after her divorce and before re-marriage) in the same way Diana remained Diana, Princess of Wales and Sarah - Sarah, Duchess of York; in other words, it is the common style of former wives of Princes. And also in the same way, she was no longer entitled to be styled as "Royal Highness"; Queen Margrethe, however, granted her the style of "Highness".

After the divorce, Queen Margrethe also granted Alexandra the title of Grevinde af Frederiksborg (Countess of Frederiksborg) with the style of "Excellency" in her own right. The title is personal (unlike that of a Princess) and was not revoked or became dormant when Alexandra re-married; thus, Alexandra's current style and title is Her Excellency Alexandra, Countess of Frederiksborg.

[Archduchess Zelia]

Originally Posted by Noble Consort Ming

On the topic of the Danish princesses - if Alexandra was a not a princess in her own right why was she allowed to keep the title after her divorce? I know she went from HRH to HH but she was still a part of the royal family according to the official site at that time.

I don't believe that she was a Princess in her own right, but remained the "HH Princess" after the divorce because she is the mother of two Danish Princes and in that way still was a member of the royal family, naturally when she married Martin Jørgensen she lost "Her Highness Princess Alexandra" and "just" remained "Her Excellency Alexandra, Countess of Frederiksborg". I don't know if I'm totally wrong here though.

[American Dane]

Originally Posted by Kit

Mary is NOT a princess in her own right. Just look at the danish monarchy website in danish: she is a princess AF Denmark as is Marie versus Isabella and Josephine and Athena who are princesses TILL Denmark. Frederik, Joachim as well as Christian, Vincent, Nikolai, Felix and Henrik are also princes TILL Denmark. Only Henri is a prince in his own right because he was created one. There is no difference in the english version but there is a huge one in the danish version.

Actually... the AF vs. TIL has to do with who is in the line of succession, not who is a prince or princess in their own right. Thus, should Mary or Marie ever be made princess in their own right at any time in the future, they will still be Prinsesse AF Danmark not TIL. Isabella, Josephine, and Athena are Prinsesses TIL Danmark as they are in line to the throne.

[Paul992234177]

Originally Posted by Idriel

I think that among his 20 or so titles, Rainier had a or several title of Count. Someone more expert than me will answer, I'm certain.

I am not sure how many of the titles that Prince Albert of monaco claims are actually his. Many of them were created by the Kings of France or Emperors of the French. It is possible that since they were inherited via Princess Charlotte, a legitimated female that most if not all of them died out with her father or went to a different, male line. The Monaco titles were absolutly her fathers to control as the laws of his country allowed but he did not have the right to alter french titles. it is possible that the Prince Louis made his daughter Duchesse de Valentinois and Marquise de Baux as new titles but I doubt that Prince Albert has the right to the French titles of Mazarin and Mayenne etc.

[Artemisia]

Actually, he still very much has those titles, and then some more. Prince Albert's full style titles are: His Serene Highness The Sovereign Prince of Monaco, Marquis of Baux, Duke de Valentinois. Duke de Mazarin, Duke de Mayenne, Marquis of Chilly-Mazarin, Marquis de Guiscard, Marquis de Bailli, Prince of Chateau-Porcien, Count of Carlades, Count of Ferrette, Count of Belfort, Count of Thann and Rosemont, Count Torigni, Count of Longjumeau, Count Cledes, Baron of Calverley, Baron of Boxwood, Baron The Luthumiere, Baron Hambye, Baron of Altkirch, Baron de Saint-Lo, Lord of Isenheim, Lord of Saint-Remy, Sire of Matignon, Gentleman of Attilly.

[Baroness of Books]

I'm surprised the title of Marquis of Baux precedes Duke de Valentinois since a marquis is a lesser title than a duke. Any reason that you know, Artemisia?