Non-British Styles and Titles

[Marsel]

Speculations on the issue of Astrid ever becoming a Queen (or Empress ) is certainly only hypothetical. But it's interesting to know how constitutional experts and lawyers would deal with the situation, however unlikely it is.

<...>
And does Monaco recognise officially Caroline as a HRH? The state of Hannover don't exist anymore and Great Britain does not recognise Ernst August as Prince of GB, right?

The state of Monaco does formally recognize the titles and styles of Prince Ernst August of Hanover (and thus, of Princess Caroline). Prince Ernst August is styled HRH The Prince of Hanover, Duke of Brunswick and Lunenburg, Prince of Great Britain and Ireland. Everywhere but Monaco, these titles are used for courtesy and are ]not valid under British, Irish or German laws (in Germany, Royal and Noble titles were abolished in 1918 and are legally considered only surnames).
It should be noted that shortly before Ernst August and Caroline’s wedding in 1999, Queen Elizabeth issued an Order-in-Council, giving her Consent to their marriage (the Consent was sought by Ernst August). Without the Royal Assent, the marriage would be invalid in Britain (where Prince Ernst August owns substantial properties), as Ernst August is subject to the Royal Marriages Act 1772.


In Monaco (where her husband’s styles and titles are recognized) and in other Monarchies, the style of HRH is superior to Caroline’s former style of HSH (her legal title is HSH The Hereditary Princess of Monaco).

As Warren has already pointed out, should Caroline succeed Prince Albert as the Sovereign of Monaco, she would be known as HRH Caroline I, Princess of Monaco (although her ancestors and her brother had lower style of TSH). She would continue being a HRH throughout her Reign (although the dynasty name would remain Grimaldi, as per Article I of the 2002 Principality Law), however when Andrea succeeds his mother, he would not be entitled to use the style Royal Highness and would be instead styled as HSH Andrea I, Prince of Monaco.

 

[principessa]

As Warren has already pointed out, should Caroline succeed Prince Albert as the Sovereign of Monaco, she would be known as HRH Caroline I, Princess of Monaco (although her ancestors and her brother had lower style of TSH). She would continue being a HRH throughout her Reign (although the dynasty name would remain Grimaldi, as per Article I of the 2002 Principality Law), however when Andrea succeeds his mother, he would not be entitled to use the style Royal Highness and would be instead styled as HSH Andrea I, Prince of Monaco.

Would then be Charlotte and Pierre also Prince(ss) of Monaco?

 

[Marsel]

They wouldn't be automatically entitled to any styles or titles, however if Caroline becomes Sovereign of Monaco, I think it is safe to assume that decrees would be issues granting them styles and titles of HSH, Prince(ss) of Monaco (unless they would prefer not to be granted any titles in order to pursue a more 'normal' lifestyle).

 

[amedea]

So monarchies recognize also members of ex-sovereign houses as HRH and HIH? So Astrid is officially HI&RH?

 

[Next Star]

If a female HRH marries a male HI&RH their children would be HI&RH. Once again, the question of female Heads of non-reigning Houses is extremely hypothetical as female Heads are few and far between. Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna is the only notable example.

I know that females being heads of their own dynastic houses are rare.
And the princess I use as signtaure is one of the few women that is head
of her own house it is not an if but an exact fact.She is not of a popular
house like Grand Duchess Maria Valdimirova is that is why it is not known.
She lives a private and quiet live outside from the more popular royals and
as well as nobles.There are many houses of all kinds it is highly unimpossible
to known all of them.Thanks for answering my question.

I believe that Monaco would become a royal house if Caroline manages to outlive Prince Albert being that her style from marriage
outranks her style from birth.

 

[branchg]

The Grimadi dynasty would remain a princely house even with Caroline as the Sovereign. She only holds the rank of HRH through marriage, not in her own right, and her sovereign title as Caroline I, Princesse de Monaco is superior to the style of Royal Highness. Technically, she would be Caroline I, Princesse de Monaco, HRH Princesse de Hannover.

As a reigning Sovereign, Caroline would be of superior rank to being HRH The Princess of Hanover, which is a courtesy style only with no standing in Germany. It is simply a name. If HRH Princess Alexandra of Hanover succeeded her mother as Sovereign, only then would Monaco be elevated to a royal house.

 

[branchg]

Would then be Charlotte and Pierre also Prince(ss) of Monaco?

Yes, they would be HSH Prince/Princesse de Monaco in their own right as the children of a reigning Sovereign, as would HRH Princess Alexandra von Hanover.

 

[Next Star]

Princess Caroline I of Monaco,HRH Princess of Hanover is the way the
princess would be address as.I just remembered that reigning heads
of state that are royal or noble and their families outrank those who
are non reigning heads of state that are royal or noble and their families.
I don't think that would happen their three people that are ahead of her
and she is so young but it is kinda of cool to think what would happen if
she were to become the soverign princess and rule and then Monaco.
Would exactly become a royal house because she holds the style of
royal highness at birth and not through marriage like her mother.

 

[Warren]

The Belgian hypothetical regarding a future Queen Astrid is fairly straightforward. Belgium is constitutionally a Kingdom and would remain so. Although Astrid is an Archduchess of Austria by marriage, she is officially a Princess of Belgium. Significantly, her husband Archduke Lorenz was created a Prince of Belgium and their children, Archdukes and Archduchesses of Austria-Este by birth, are also officially Princes and Princesses of Belgium. Call it clever dynastic contingency planning - always look to the long term.

The Belgian Royal House is the near-invisible Saxe-Coburg & Gotha, since they prefer to go by "de Belgique" and variations thereof. In the now-unlikely event of Astrid's son Amedeo inheriting the Belgian crown it's safe to assume he would continue the current usage and not declare the resurrection of the Habsburg Dynasty.

The Luxembourgers took the pragmatic approach when they retained the maternal House of Nassau while acquiring the Bourbon-Parma paternity and Royal style. Without Prince Felix's essential contribution, the rash of Royal Highness Princes and Princesses of Nassau created since 2004 would otherwise be middling Highnesses, and most other members of the Ruling Family would attract curiosity by bearing the somewhat archaic style of Grand Ducal Highness.

Although Princess Caroline has the HRH through marriage to Prince Ernst August, as a hypothetical Sovereign Princess of Monaco my assumption is that she would continue to be addressed and styled as a Royal Highness rather than as a Serene Highness. This assumption may be wrong of course, but the scenario of a "Reigning Royal Grimaldi" is too good to be dismissed so easily.

° ° ° ° °

Next Star, when you ask a question here about reigning and non-reigning Royal or Princely Houses, the assumption is that you are referring to those Houses recognised by the Gotha, and by our members, and the response you get will be in reference to those Houses. If your questions instead allude or refer to such persons as "Princess Kamorrisa de St.Cogo,Countess von zu Welle" (from your signature) you really should direct those questions to them as they do not form part of the recognised royal world.

As an aside, there are four search results for this supposed-princess found on Google; two appear to relate to posts made by you in these Forums, and the other two lead to the "Regal World Forums" consisting of two pages here and here. I note that the content of these pages and another concerning "an aspiring and upcoming urban model" has a remarkable similarity to your own writing style.

The multi-titled "Princess Kamorrisa de St.Cogo, Countess von zu Welle, previously known as Duchess von Coth Ind Savoy" is a patent nonsense and should not be raised in serious discussion in these Forums.

 

[Lumutqueen]

I still do not understand how a Royal house would become and Imperial one? Or a Princely house became a Royal one?

And how would Astrid go from being Queen to Empress?

 

[amedea]

Astrid could be Empress if the Austrian Empire is restaured and archdukes Karl, Ferdinand Zvonimir, Georg, Karoly renounce their rights or die before archduke Lorenz.
She could also become Empress in case the belgian costitution is changed to make Belgium an Empire.. since every state can call itself as it prefers that's possible.. but so unlikeble, thanks god!

 

[Warren]

amedea has it right!

However, for more detail...
A non-reigning Royal House could theoretically promote itself to Imperial or Imperial and Royal status if the Head of the House was female and she married an Imperial Prince. That circumstance would be most unusual as Salic Law prevents women from inheriting in many of the European Houses. Then again, Napoleon Bonaparte just declared himself Emperor and that was that, the Bonapartes became an Imperial Family. Much the same deal with the Pahlavis in Iran.

Otherwise, a Princely House could become Royal in the same manner as the Princely House of Nassau-Weilburg and the Princely House of Nassau-Usingen merged themselves into the Ducal House of Nassau. The last reigning Duke of Nassau was deposed by the Prussians in 1866 but had the good fortune to inherit the throne of the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg in 1890. The Nassau family made another move upwards when Grand Duchess Charlotte married a Royal Prince. Grand Ducal ranking was thus replaced by truly Royal ranking. A combination of circumstance and marriage has led this branch of the Nassau Family to where it is today as a Reigning and Royal House.

Alternatively, the government of a principality can just declare itself a Kingdom, as the Emirate (or Sheikhdom) of Bahrain did in 2002. The Ruling Sheikh became a Ruling King at the stroke of a pen.

 

[amedea]

Another case that can explain something is the Este/Modena case in the XVIII century: the family had only a female heir, duchess Maria Beatrice who married archduke Ferdinand of Austria. The sovereign family of Modena passed from the style of HH to the one of HI&RH in that way. The title of the sovereign, of course, did NOT change in Emperor of Modena, but remained the one of Duke of Modena. It seems to me that if with the Este we had HH the Duke of Modena, with the Austria-Este we had HI&RH the Duke of Modena.
In that way, however, it was clear that the ducal family was part of the imperial family, something that bothered the Italian nationalists of XIX century (has could bother Belgians have a king that is part of an Austrian Imperial family).
However there is one BIG difference between the Modena case and the Belgium case: nowadays the Empire is no more alive.

 

[Next Star]

° ° ° ° °

Next Star, when you ask a question here about reigning and non-reigning Royal or Princely Houses, the assumption is that you are referring to those Houses recognised by the Gotha, and by our members, and the response you get will be in reference to those Houses. If your questions instead allude or refer to such persons as "Princess Kamorrisa de St.Cogo,Countess von zu Welle" (from your signature) you really should direct those questions to them as they do not form part of the recognised royal world.

As an aside, there are four search results for this supposed-princess found on Google; two appear to relate to posts made by you in these Forums, and the other two lead to the "Regal World Forums" consisting of two pages here and here. I note that the content of these pages and another concerning "an aspiring and upcoming urban model" has a remarkable similarity to your own writing style.

The multi-titled "Princess Kamorrisa de St.Cogo, Countess von zu Welle, previously known as Duchess von Coth Ind Savoy" is a patent nonsense and should not be raised in serious discussion in these Forums.

I know I should not have styled the princess that why in the first place nor mentioned
her because 1.She is not popular and not recongized by the royal world.
2.She is not European the Gotha to my knowledge only recongizes European royalty
and nobility.The other page has nothing to do with the princess and I will not raise too much talk
about her because of those two things that are mentioned above.Thank you for your point of
view though I humbly disagree.

 

[Next Star]

Alternatively, the government of a principality can just declare itself a Kingdom, as the Emirate (or Sheikhdom) of Bahrain did in 2002. The Ruling Sheikh became a Ruling King at the stroke of a pen.

Just thinking about you said Warren that with the consitituation being changed for Baharain it went from an emirate to kingdom.
And then you mention Luxembourg they too can go from a grand duchy to a kingom but they would be kinda of sad because there
would no reigninng grand duchies left.Because Luxembourg is the last reigning duchy left in the world.

 

[MAfan]

But I guess that the other nations has to recognise a passage from a Principality to a kingdom, or from a Kingdom to an Empire...
When the Duchy of Savoy passed to Kingdom of Sardinia, it was due to the fact that the Holy Roman Empire recognised it as a kingdom...

 

[Next Star]

Monaco was a lordship but by King Louis 15 or 16 I forget switch one made them princes and it offically became a principality.

 

[DuedePhiladelphia]

Monaco was a lordship but by King Louis 15 or 16 I forget switch one made them princes and it offically became a principality.

I read that Spain was responsible for the Grimaldis princely status. They began as Lords then Prince thru Spain and then the Duchy Valentois title thru France.
Yes, they procured many other lesser titles thru diffrent marriages

 

[Next Star]

The information you read is highly incorrect not believe everything you read.I saw an interview with Prince Albert II of Monaco back in 2004 when he was the heir to the throne.He was on Larry King Live and he was by Larry how did his family recieve the title of prince.The prince
said that his family recieve the title from the king of France.

 

[yftyt2006]

Simple Question I have always wondered about

As far as I know, if a Prince marries a common woman, she becomes known as a Princess. However, if a Princess marries a common man, is he granted a specific title? Please let me know. Thanks.

 

[whataboutboo]

The children are still His and Her Royal Highness Prince and Princess of Wessex though from a legal stand point that as

 

[Zonk]

From what I know, any children get their royal titles from their fathers unless special provisions are made. Thus the children of HRH The Princess Royal are Zara and Peter Phillips. The offer of a title was made to Princess Anne and Capt Mark Phillips but was declined by the couple. I believe the same example is with Princess Martha Louise of Norway.

Likewise the children of Charles, Andrew and Edward are automatically Prince and Princess though Edward's children are using titles from a lower rank.

This might differ from country to countr but I believe that its pretty much the same. Basically if a Princess marries a common man unless a decree is issued (i.e. the granddaughters of King Edward VII) or a title is given the children don't have titles.

 

[Lord Sosnowitz]

As far as I know, if a Prince marries a common woman, she becomes known as a Princess. However, if a Princess marries a common man, is he granted a specific title? Please let me know. Thanks.

Just in special cases, if she is a crown princess (The Duke of Edinburgh, Prince Henrik, the Late Prince Claus) or she is sovereign's daughter (this case is very rare) (Crown Princess Victoria husband-to-be, Princess Royal's first husband, Earl of Snowdon, Archduke Lorenz of Austria-Erste -> Prince of Belgium, Crown Princess of Roumania's husband ->Prince of Hohenzollern-Veringen, later Prince of Roumania, husbands of Spanish Infantas, ...)

 

[michelleq]

HSH and HRH

Has anyone in recent history elevated an HSH to a HRH? The only one that I can think of was from Luxembourg when I believe that a Grand Duchess married a Duke of Parma?

Correct me if I am wrong.

 

[acdc1]

Didn't Princess Caroline of Monaco?

 

[magnik]

For example:
HSH Prince Leoopold - HRH Prince Leopold - HM Kinf Leopold I King of the Belgians
HSH Prince Albert - few days before wedding with HM Queen Victoria became HRH
HSH Princess Victoria Mary Augusta - HRH Duchess of York - HM Queen Mary
HSH Princess Caroline of Monaco - HRH Princess Caroline of Hannover
HSH Princess Emma - HM Queen Emma

 

[principessa]

I asked me if the correct title of the Danish Queen is translated in German to "Königin von Dänemark" or "Königin zu Dänemark". Can someone help me?

Thank you.

principessa

 

[Zonk]

I believe you can only do so via marriage (as the examples above show) and with special permission of a sovereign or becoming a new soverign (Leopold).

I believe that one of Queen Victoria's son in laws was an HSH (Henry of Battenberg I believe). Victoria elevated him to an HRH so he was an HRH in the UK but elsewhere he was still an HSH.

 

[Catherine Helvin]

As far as I know, if a Prince marries a common woman, she becomes known as a Princess. However, if a Princess marries a common man, is he granted a specific title? Please let me know. Thanks.

This is at the discretion of the reigning monarch. For example, shortly before the birth of their first child in 1961, the Queen created Antony Armstrong-Jones the Earl of Snowdon but she didn't give a title to the husbands of Princesses Alexandra or Anne.

 

[MAfan]

If I don't mistake, the Queen offered to both Sir Angus Oglivy and Mark Phillips a comital title on their wedding day, but both them refused it.