Non-British Styles and Titles

[magnik]

Originally Posted by avrilo

Princess Alexandra (¿) I´m not sure.

Of Denmark?

On her birthday 16 April 2005 Queen Margrethe bestowed upon her former daughter-in-law the additional personal title grevinde af Frederiksborg (countess of Frederiksborg). [2] The title is personal (unlike the title of princess) and thus will not be revoked or become dormant if Princess Alexandra chooses to remarry. Like a life peerage in the United Kingdom, it will not be inherited by her children. The title Countess of Frederiksborg is given the rank of Class 1, which will entitle Princess Alexandra to the style of "Excellency" upon remarriage.

[RachelD]

If William (UK) were to marry right now, his wife would be elevated to Princess status, but if they were to divorce within the next few years, or God forbid, he were to pass away, his widow would lose her title of Princess???? What if by that time he were already the Prince of Wales..? Would the widow remain with the title The Dowager Princess of Wales...??? Just wondering....

[magnik]

I don't think if his wife would would be elevated to Princess status she will has his name/title - Diana, Sarah, Sophie - no princess/duches/countess courtesy title.

[Avalon]

If Prince William were already The Prince of Wales, his wife would be "name", The Princess of Wales untill the divorce, when she would be simply 'name', Princess of Wales, without the "The". William's new wife would be The Princess of Wales.

When Diana, The Princess of Wales divorced Prince Charles, The Prince of Wales, she became Diana, Princess of Wales. Prince Charles's new wife,Camilla, is The Princess of Wales (though she prefers to use the title of The Duchess of Cornwall).
The same with Sarah Ferguson. She is no longer Sarah, The Duchess of York but simply Sarah, Duchess of York.

None of those ladies were Princess or Duchess in their own right, so they couldn't be called Princess Diana or Duchess Sarah. Their proper name was Diana, Princess of Wales and Sarah, Duchess of York.

[RachelD]

Oh....o.k.

Thanks Magnik and Avalon for answering my questions!

[EmpressRouge]

The late Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester (mother of the present Duke) also got elevated because she didn't want people to confuse her daughter-in-law (after she was widowed, her title "HRH the Dowger Duchess of Gloucester," and her daughter-in-law was "HRH the Duchess of Gloucester.") She asked Queen Elizabeth II to allow her be called Princess Alice. Princess Marina also wanted to be known in the same style (Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent) but since she was a princess by birth, she did not need to ask the Queen for special permission.

[Furienna]

It's interesting how the little word "the" means so much in Brittish titles. I also always forget, that Diana shouldn't be called "Princess Diana". We always called her that in Sweden.

[Lady Jennifer]

Originally Posted by Furienna

It's interesting how the little word "the" means so much in Brittish titles. I also always forget, that Diana shouldn't be called "Princess Diana". We always called her that in Sweden.

They still call her that in the States.

Originally Posted by RachelD

or God forbid, he were to pass away, his widow would lose her title of Princess???? What if by that time he were already the Prince of Wales..? Would the widow remain with the title The Dowager Princess of Wales...??? Just wondering....

If William were married & he ended up passing away his wife would still keep the title- (I think) until she got married again (if she were to remarry). Queen Victoria's mother was still the Duchess of Kent & she was a widow.

[Madame Royale]

Originally Posted by Lady Jennifer

They still call her that in the States.

They still call Diana, Princess Diana in Australia aswell though sometimes they shall say Diana, Princess of Wales. On the day of her death they referred to her as Diana, Princess of Wales.

Lady Jennifer,

I must say that I dont recommend anyone eat their breakfast/lunch or dinner (even if slightly overdone as is my case ) and look at your avatar at the same time...

Suddenly, I'm not so hungry

[Next Star]

All the Princesses of Beligum who were married into the royal family were created princess upon their marriage to the Princes of Beligum.I also heard the late Princess Grace of Monaco was created princess in her own right too please correct if I am wrong but I hope I am correct.

[Josefine]

Originally Posted by petritheturtle

...a royal were to marry a normal citizen. Say if a prince marries a woman does she become a princess? And how does one achieve the status of Count? (ie the Count of Monte Cristo etc.)

We got several examples that "a normal citizen" gets her own title princess or she uses her husbands title.
there are members on this board that can tell us about the differnce a princess in her own right and use her husbands title

[LadyK]

Most of our Crown Princesses were commoners- actually, only one of them was not. Crown Princess Mathilde of Belgium was a member of the Belgian nobility prior to her marriage.

All the monarchies in the world (at least as far as I know) require that royals, (or at least the heir) are required to ask the government's permission and/or the permission of the king/queen prior to marrying anyone. If they do not, or if that permission is denied, then that royal would lose their titles, right to succession, and possibly their government-provided allowances.

Crown Princess Mette-Marit was a single mother with a past when she fell in love with Crown Prince Haakon of Norway. After long, long debates, both in the press and in the government, the Norwegian government decided to allow the marriage. Her past has now mostly been overlooked (it's there, but no one cares). At least with me, that Haakon fought for Mette-Marit and for their love just makes me like them more.

Crown Princess Letizia was Doña Letizia Ortiz Roscasolano, a television journalist in Madrid prior to her marriage, and a divorcee. As Spain is a Catholic monarchy which has had a traditionally very conservative royal family, this was considered a major deal...although Felipe's ex-girlfriends included lingere models......The king and queen threw their support behind the couple, and the government approved the marriage, and now Letizia is one of the most popular royal ladies in the world.

Crown Princess Mary of Denmark was Miss Mary Donaldson, an Australian who worked in a real estate office and then at Microsoft prior to her marriage. After meeting her future husband in a Sydney, Australia bar during the Olympics, and overcoming his mother's initial doubts, the Danish government easily passed the motion to allow Miss Donaldson to marry the Crown Prince, and also awarded her Danish citizenry. Crown Princess Mary is now wildly popular and considered to be a multi-million dollar asset to Denmark.

Crown Princess Máxima of the Netherlands, neé Mámima Zorreguieta Cerruti, was an Argentinian financier who was working in New York City's financial district when she met Crown Prince Willem-Alexander of the Netherlands at a dinner party. Her father was the agricultural minister under Jorge Videla. During Videla's governing, Argentina was the scene of massive human-rights abuses and state-sponsered violence (here's a link about it). Although there is no proof that her father ever was a part of these things, he was still a part of Videla's government. Debate raged for months about what to do. WA was determined to marry Máxima, and I believe that he even threatened to renounce his rights to sucession if he was not allowed to marry her. Finally, Máxima was allowed to marry Willem-Alexander, but it was decided that her father would not be allowed to attend the wedding, and her mother decided to abstain as well (the song "Stand by your man" plays in my head...). This was undoubtedly difficult for Máxima, and she cried for them during her wedding, but her love won out. Máxima and Willem-Alexander are now the parents of three beautiful girls, and Máxima is very popular, particularly in the Netherlands.

________________________________________________________________

Originally Posted by Josefine

We got several examples that "a normal citizen" gets her own title princess or she uses her husbands title.
there are members on this board that can tell us about the differnce a princess in her own right and use her husbands title

I think I have addressed the first part of Josefine's post in the above part of my message, but now I'll address the issue of princess in her own right vs. a princess who just uses her husband's title.

I don't remember many princesses who were solely granted their own title without using her husband's title as well.

Crown Princess Mathilde of Belgium was given the title of Princess Mathilde of Belgium, a title given to her by the king, on her wedding day. This title means that, no matter what happens, if she became divorced, widowed, or whatever, that she will always be Princess Mathilde of Belgium. However, since her husband's titles of Crown Prince and Duke of Brabant are above her title of Princess, she is commonly addressed by his titles.

Royals are generally addressed by the highest title they posess- such as the Prince of Wales, who is also a Prince of England and Scotland, Duke of Cornwall, Duke of Rothsay, and several other titles I don't remember, but is always addressed as Prince of Wales.

Crown Princess Máxima of the Netherlands was also created as Princess of the Netherlands in her own right. Again, that means that the title is hers and hers alone. Since she is the wife of the Crown Prince, out of respect she is addressed as Crown Princess Máxima (there is a thread about Máxima's titles in the Dutch Royal Family section, to discuss the finer points of her styling because hers might be more complicated).

As far as I know, they are the only ones created as Princess in their own right.

Women who use their husband's titles:

Most royal women use their husband's titles, unless the women already posess titles that supercede their husbands'. All the Queen Consorts only receive the title because of their husband- Queen Sonja, Queen Sofia, Queen Silvia, Queen Paola, Queen Rania, Empress Michiko, and others, for example.
Also, some royal women outrank their husbands, so the husbands may be given titles that are appropriate but which do not outrank their wives. Examples of these women are
Queen Elizabeth II of England---husband: Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh Queen Beatrix of the Netherlands--- husband: the late Prince Claus of the Netherlands
Queen Margrethe II of Denmark---husband: Prince Henrik, the Prince Consort
Infanta Elena of Spain---husband: Don Jaime de Marichalar, Duke of Lugo
Infanta Cristina of Spain---husband: Don Iñaki Undagarín, Duke of Palma de Mallorca

Princesses Mabel, Anita, and Aimee of the Netherlands are given the title of Princess as a courtesy, since their husbands are princes. Since the government never granted permission for them to wed their husbands-Princes Friso, Pieter-Christiaan, and Floris, respectively- their husbands lost their position in the royal house and the style of "his royal highness".

I hope that that explanation is clearer than mud...

[GrandDuchessOlga]

Wow! come to think about it Mary was actually the only commoner who passed the test immediately. I think it´s great that 3 crown princesses has passed even though they were not accepted at first and wouldn´t have been 50 years ago (look at Wallis Simpson). It shows the world is not so stiff and conservative anymore.

[princess leonor]

Originally Posted by GrandDuchessOlga

Wow! come to think about it Mary was actually the only commoner who passed the test immediately.

Did she? Maybe it's a bit of topic but I thought I read somewhere that the Queen opposed their relationship for a very long time (4 years??) And that that was an extra reason for Fred;s tears at the wedding, that he was finally able to marry Mary. DId I get it wrong?

[GrandDuchessOlga]

Hehe I never heard of this but it sounds like a gossip story for hopeless romantics. But I really don´t know. I only heard the queen praise Frederiks girlfriend when asked about her.

[LadyK]

[QUOTE=princess leonor;631997]

Originally Posted by GrandDuchessOlga

Wow! come to think about it Mary was actually the only commoner who passed the test immediately. quote]

Did she? Maybe it's a bit of topic but I thought I read somewhere that the Queen opposed their relationship for a very long time (4 years??) And that that was an extra reason for Fred;s tears at the wedding, that he was finally able to marry Mary. DId I get it wrong?

What happened was for at least several months, if not a year, when Frederik was very serious about Mary, just prior to her moving to Denmark and then just after her moving, Margrethe had some doubts. Then Mary joined them on a vacation where Margrethe really got to know her and afterwards stated that Mary would make a good daughter-in-law (I don't remember verbatim, but I think that was about it). Now they seem to be on very good terms.

Originally Posted by GrandDuchessOlga

Wow! come to think about it Mary was actually the only commoner who passed the test immediately. I think it´s great that 3 crown princesses has passed even though they were not accepted at first and wouldn´t have been 50 years ago (look at Wallis Simpson). It shows the world is not so stiff and conservative anymore.

Mathilde didn't have any trouble, I don't think (I can't remember off the top of my head). Letizia's "scandal" was mainly in the media and not so much in the government since the King and Queen had thrown their support behind Letizia, and her previous marriage was not considered valid by the Catholic Church (since it was a civil union).

[Lakshmi]

Originally Posted by LadyK

Princesses Mabel, Anita, and Aimee of the Netherlands are given the title of Princess as a courtesy, since their husbands are princes. Since the government never granted permission for them to wed their husbands-Princes Friso, Pieter-Christiaan, and Floris, respectively- their husbands lost their position in the royal house and the style of "his royal highness".

I hope that that explanation is clearer than mud...

I always thought princess' titles for Mabel or Anita are not just courtesy. They married princes anyway, so as wives they should have title automatically, unless we have so called morganatic marriage.
Even if government does not approve the marriage and their husbands are not in line of succession anymore, aren't their wives noble anyway.

[LadyK]

Originally Posted by Lakshmi

I always thought princess' titles for Mabel or Anita are not just courtesy. They married princes anyway, so as wives they should have title automatically, unless we have so called morganatic marriage.
Even if government does not approve the marriage and their husbands are not in line of succession anymore, aren't their wives noble anyway.

Nope. Their wives, and the princes themselves, are just commoners with uncommon parents. Because it'd be weird to call them Prince Friso and Mrs. Mabel von Oranje, they are called Prince and Princess. If Mabel, Anita, or Aimee were to divorce, they would not be allowed to use any sort of royal title.

Mabel and Friso did not receive permission because of Mabel's past (which was just too much for the Dutch government) and the disclosure/lack of disclosure. (see their marriage thread for more information).
Pieter-Christiaan and Floris did not bother to petition for permission for their marriages because the unlikelyness that either of them would inherit the throne. At the time of their marriages, Willem-Alexander, the Crown Prince (PC and Floris's cousin); Constantijn, the youngest son of the Queen; and Maurits and Bernhard Jr., PC and Floris's older brothers, were all married with children.

All three women have their own lives and jobs, and have limited royal activities.

[melodica]

The daughters of Courtesy Earls (for example, the Earl of St Andrews' daughters) hold the title of Lady, which I believe is the extent of their style.
(That is, Lady does not represent them being Viscountesses or any such thing, as it often does.)

My question, then, is this: if a non-royal marries one of these daughters, do they pick up the title of Lord?

Thank you!

[Warren]

Originally Posted by melodica

My question, then, is this: if a non-royal marries one of these daughters, do they pick up the title of Lord?

As a general rule husbands don't acquire titles through marriage. Thus Lady Helen Windsor's husband is Mr Taylor, and Lady Sarah Armstrong-Jones's husband is Mr Chatto.