Non-British Styles and Titles - Page 12

CrownPrinceLorenzo · #**221** 02-23-2006, 12:29 AM

Okay guys.

So it goes, assuming they all have the same titles, HIH > HGDH > HRH > HSH > HH > HDSH > HIllH?

How do you address non-UK Barons? Or reigning Barons?

Thanks for the links Toledo.

Toledo · #**222** 02-23-2006, 01:10 AM

Your welcome.
PS. at the bottom of the Heraldica site, the third one I posted, is the email of one of the best online authorities in all things titled. I suggest you to consider using it and let us know the results. I'm sure he will be very deligthed for the interest. Plus, I wonder if he is one of the members in here, if not, he could join in and give us a nice lecture on titles.

Warren · #**223** 02-23-2006, 02:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrownPrinceLorenzo

How do you address non-UK Barons? Or reigning Barons?

Under the Holy Roman Empire (Habsburg hereditary territories and the German States) there were no "reigning Barons". After 1815 there were only reigning Emperors, Kings, Grand Dukes, Dukes, one Elector aka Landgrave (Hesse-Kassel), and Princes.

Prior to 1582 the Imperial States of the Empire consisted of the "Old Princes". "New Princes" were subsequently admitted, and from 1641 "Princes of the Empire" were created together with the "Councils of the Counts of the Empire". No-one below a Count held sovereignty. Sovereign Counts who lost the right to rule at the Congress of Vienna in 1815 joined the ranks of the Mediatised Houses. Barons didn't get a look-in.

CrownPrinceLorenzo · #**224** 02-23-2006, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toledo

Your welcome.
PS. at the bottom of the Heraldica site, the third one I posted, is the email of one of the best online authorities in all things titled. I suggest you to consider using it and let us know the results. I'm sure he will be very deligthed for the interest. Plus, I wonder if he is one of the members in here, if not, he could join in and give us a nice lecture on titles.

Thanks ^_^ I emailed him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warren

Under the Holy Roman Empire (Habsburg hereditary territories and the German States) there were no "reigning Barons". After 1815 there were only reigning Emperors, Kings, Grand Dukes, Dukes, one Elector aka Landgrave (Hesse-Kassel), and Princes.

Prior to 1582 the Imperial States of the Empire consisted of the "Old Princes". "New Princes" were subsequently admitted, and from 1641 "Princes of the Empire" were created together with the "Councils of the Counts of the Empire". No-one below a Count held sovereignty. Sovereign Counts who lost the right to rule at the Congress of Vienna in 1815 joined the ranks of the Mediatised Houses. Barons didn't get a look-in.

So the description of a Baron being ruler of a Barony is just theoritical?

Toledo · #**225** 02-23-2006, 11:03 PM

please let us know if he responds.

Warren · #**226** 02-24-2006, 01:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crown Prince Lorenzo

So the description of a Baron being ruler of a Barony is just theoritical?

You're going medieval. My reply dealt with the HRE from the C16th where only the Imperial Princes, and later Counts, were ruling sovereigns under the Emperor.

CrownPrinceLorenzo · #**227** 02-24-2006, 02:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toledo

please let us know if he responds.

Bad news Toledo. The email returned to me. I guess he doesn't have that email anymore. :(

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warren

You're going medieval. My reply dealt with the HRE from the C16th where only the Imperial Princes, and later Counts, were ruling sovereigns under the Emperor.

Ah okay. How were medieval Barons addressed then? Also if a reigning Duke has a son, would he be called a Prince?

Warren · #**228** 02-24-2006, 03:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrownPrinceLorenzo

Ah okay. How were medieval Barons addressed then? Also if a reigning Duke has a son, would he be called a Prince?

Medieval Barons would probably by addressed as "My Lord" or the equivalent in German. Styles weren't as developed in that age as they later became.

The titles of the sons of the reigning Dukes varied.
The heir of the Dukes of Anhalt was Hereditary Prince of Anhalt; other sons were Princes of Anhalt.
Similary with the Dukes of Saxe-Coburg & Gotha, except that members of the family also bore the title of Duke (or Duchess) of Saxony.
The eldest son of the Grand Duke of Saxe-Weimar-Eisenach was the Hereditary Grand Duke, other sons had the title of Prince of Saxe-Weimar-Eisenach, Duke of Saxony;
whereas sons other than the heirs of the Grand Dukes of Mecklenburg-Schwerin and Mecklenburg-Strelitz were Dukes of Mecklenburg.

To confuse the issue further, sons of the Royal House of the Kingdom of Württemberg were (are) Dukes of Württemberg, and not Princes of Württemberg.

Princess Robijn · #**229** 02-24-2006, 04:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrownPrinceLorenzo

Okay guys.

So it goes, assuming they all have the same titles, HIH > HGDH > HRH > HSH > HH > HDSH > HIllH?

How do you address non-UK Barons? Or reigning Barons?

Thanks for the links Toledo.

isn't HRH higher than HGDH

CrownPrinceLorenzo · #**230** 02-24-2006, 05:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warren

Medieval Barons would probably by addressed as "My Lord" or the equivalent in German. Styles weren't as developed in that age as they later became.

The titles of the sons of the reigning Dukes varied.
The heir of the Dukes of Anhalt was Hereditary Prince of Anhalt; other sons were Princes of Anhalt.
Similary with the Dukes of Saxe-Coburg & Gotha, except that members of the family also bore the title of Duke (or Duchess) of Saxony.
The eldest son of the Grand Duke of Saxe-Weimar-Eisenach was the Hereditary Grand Duke, other sons had the title of Prince of Saxe-Weimar-Eisenach, Duke of Saxony;
whereas sons other than the heirs of the Grand Dukes of Mecklenburg-Schwerin and Mecklenburg-Strelitz were Dukes of Mecklenburg.

To confuse the issue further, sons of the Royal House of the Kingdom of Württemberg were (are) Dukes of Württemberg, and not Princes of Württemberg.

That is quite the confusion alright. How about His Grace? Where does that fall in?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Princess Robijn

isn't HRH higher than HGDH

I'm not sure. I was hoping the guys/gals can clear it up. But I think you're right. HRH is higher than HGDH

RoyalProtocol · #**231** 02-24-2006, 05:58 AM

The Correct order for Titles is:

Your Imperial Majesty (an emperor or empress)
Your Majesty ( A King or Queen)
Your Serene Majesty (Not currently in use)
Your Imperial Highness
Your Royal and Imperial Highness (certain Royal Highnesses who have married an Austrian Royal and adopted his title while retaining their own title at the same time.)
Your Royal Highness
Your Serene Highness
Your Grand Ducal Highness (currently not used by any reigning Royal/Grand Ducal Family)
Your Highness (minor royals and some Commonwealth soveriegns, emirs etc)
Your Grace (Not A Royal Title, used by Dukes of Non-Royal Blood and Certain Religious officials, eg His Grace the Archbishop of Canterbury)

The Title of Grand Ducal Highness was used in Luxemburg in the past but has fallen out of use.
Hope this makes sense

RoyalProtocol · #**232** 02-24-2006, 06:08 AM

It is to be noted that one should be careful when using the order of titles not to assume that ones title determines the order of precedence,

An emperor, King, Queen and Reigning Prince and Grand Duke all count as Sovereigns and should be ranked according to the Date of their accession not by their Title, likewise their family should be ranked according to thier relation to the Sovereign.

EG HM The Queen AND HSH Prince Albert II are of an Equal rank and do not bow or curtsey to each other,

The Princess Royal (HRH) however would be expected to curtsey to Albert II (HSH) even though his title is of a lesser rank than hers.

And HSH The Grand Duchess of Luxemburg would not be expected to Curtsey to The Prince of Wales (HRH) but he would be expected to bow (nod at least) to Her.

The King and Queen of Greece and The King and Queen of Romania are also still granted the Title of Majesty and bowed and curtseyed to by all nonSovereign Royals. Their Families are also addressed as HRH

CrownPrinceLorenzo · #**233** 02-24-2006, 06:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoyalProtocol

The Title of Grand Ducal Highness was used in Luxemburg in the past but has fallen out of use.
Hope this makes sense

Wasn't it because Grand Duchess Charlotte's consort was a Royal Prince?

RoyalProtocol · #**234** 02-24-2006, 06:16 AM

Yes i Think that was why.

CrownPrinceLorenzo · #**235** 02-24-2006, 06:18 AM

Thanks RoyalProtocol.

Just a recap.

HIM > HM > HIH > HRH > HSH > HGDH > HH > HDSH > HIllH

Is that right?

Princess Robijn · #**236** 02-24-2006, 06:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoyalProtocol

The Correct order for Titles is:

Your Imperial Majesty (an emperor or empress)
Your Majesty ( A King or Queen)
Your Serene Majesty (Not currently in use)
Your Imperial Highness
Your Royal and Imperial Highness (certain Royal Highnesses who have married an Austrian Royal and adopted his title while retaining their own title at the same time.)
Your Royal Highness
Your Serene Highness
Your Grand Ducal Highness (currently not used by any reigning Royal/Grand Ducal Family)
Your Highness (minor royals and some Commonwealth soveriegns, emirs etc)
Your Grace (Not A Royal Title, used by Dukes of Non-Royal Blood and Certain Religious officials, eg His Grace the Archbishop of Canterbury)

The Title of Grand Ducal Highness was used in Luxemburg in the past but has fallen out of use.
Hope this makes sense

Thank you :) :) :)

Princess Robijn · #**237** 02-24-2006, 06:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoyalProtocol

It is to be noted that one should be careful when using the order of titles not to assume that ones title determines the order of precedence,

An emperor, King, Queen and Reigning Prince and Grand Duke all count as Sovereigns and should be ranked according to the Date of their accession not by their Title, likewise their family should be ranked according to thier relation to the Sovereign.

EG HM The Queen AND HSH Prince Albert II are of an Equal rank and do not bow or curtsey to each other,

The Princess Royal (HRH) however would be expected to curtsey to Albert II (HSH) even though his title is of a lesser rank than hers.

And HSH The Grand Duchess of Luxemburg would not be expected to Curtsey to The Prince of Wales (HRH) but he would be expected to bow (nod at least) to Her.

The King and Queen of Greece and The King and Queen of Romania are also still granted the Title of Majesty and bowed and curtseyed to by all nonSovereign Royals. Their Families are also addressed as HRH

Isn't it HRH The Grand Duchess of Luxemburg (because of their Bourbon-Parma title)