Bowing and Curtseying


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NGalitzine said:
As the wife of a head of state it would not be required, but then Philip bowed to the Emperor of Japan. Mette Marit of Norway curtsies to everyone.
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Charlene also curtsied to Charles which is totally not right as she is wife of a head of state so she may become the new MM :ROFLMAO:
 
XeniaCasaraghi said:
The Emperor better not bow to NO ONE!
Though I wonder how annoying and confusing it is to be in that room and if random royals drop a curtesy if someone higher walks by. They should all just give a huge bow/curtesy at once when they all walk in the room and then be done with it. : D
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Actually, the Emperor bows to quite a few people. Not because he has to (as a reigning Emperor, he outranks pretty much everyone else), but because he chooses to as per Japanese tradition. For instance, when he was recently discharged from hospital following an operation, both he and Empress Michiko bowed to the doctors who had performed the surgery (needless to say, the royal couple got even lowers bows from them).

As you have rightly noted, Heads of State do not bow or curtsey to each other. Their spouses, however must bow to other Heads of State by protocol. Thus, while Queen Elizabeth and King Harald of Norway don't have to curtsey/bow to each other, Prince Philip can bow to King Harald, and Queen Sonja - to Queen Elizabeth. In addition, male royals (whether monarchs or consorts) usually slightly bow in front of female consorts of fellow royals as well, although they are certainly not required to by protocol.

Princess Charlene had to curtsey to Queen Elizabeth and chose to curtsey to Prince Philip as well; both were correct by protocol rules. However, her decision to curtsey to Prince Charles is purely mark of respect; she most certainly didn't have to as consort of a Head of State.
 
carlota said:
a picture of charlene curtsying the queen:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-0yo_xLzug44/T7Z8vcuNuKI/AAAAAAAA2wc/rEm5Wx-iplU/s640/x610.jpg
the picture made me confused. seeing charlene is the wife of the head of state, i wonder if it's appropriate for her to curtsy the queen. (however, clearly charlene is a less senior royal, younger and wife of the sovereign herself, whereas the queen is sovereign in her own right. but none of the other queens would curtsy her, so i don't know why charlene does so: how protocolar is it?)
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Consorts to curtsey to Heads of State - they aren't of the same rank. Charlene would therefore be correct in curtseying to The Queen just as Philip would bow to the various monarchs who are Heads of State but also to those who are crowned as Queens' Consort. He would regularly be seen giving a bow to the Queen Mother - a crowned Queen while he is only a Prince. It isn't only position but also title that matters.
 
:previous: It would appear Philip did so (after his wife's accession) out of respect for his mother in-law.

We don't see the Duke bow his head to Sonja, Silvia or Sofia so I don't believe that theory proven.

Charlene, whilst holding a lesser style, is still the wife of a reigning sovereign so curtseying to either Prince Philip and indeed the Prince of Wales is just not necessary. But, she evidently feels it appropriate for whatever reason.

As for the Queen, we don't see any other consorts curtsey to her so I do find it rather odd that Charlene should, however, given the difference in age and perhaps the dispersion of HM position as Queen of 16 indapendant realms may further explain the Princess of Monaco's decision to do so. At one time including her very own and beloved South Africa, although she herself was not born for another 17 years after an Indapendant SA was proclaimed, so it's not as though there would be any personal reconciliation to the notion.
 
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Madame Royale said:
:previous: It would appear Philip did so (after his wife's accession) out of respect for his mother in-law.

We don't see the Duke bow his head to Sonja, Silvia or Sofia so I don't believe that theory proven.

Charlene, whilst holding a lesser style, is still the wife of a reigning sovereign so curtseying to either Prince Philip and indeed the Prince of Wales is just not necessary. But, she evidently feels it appropriate for whatever reason.

As for the Queen, we don't see any other consorts curtsey to her so I do find it rather odd that Charlene should, however, given the difference in age and perhaps the dispersion of HM position as Queen of 16 indapendant realms may further explain the Princess of Monaco's decision to do so.
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Lalla Meryem, GDMaria Theresa and CP of Thailand (possibly others) curtsied to the Queen.
 
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GrammaSueSue said:
Lalla Meryem, GDMaria Theresa and CP of Thailand (possibly others) curtsied to the Queen.
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You would expect Lalla Meryem, the Crown Princely couple and others to do so. They are princes' and princess'.

Maria Teresa surpirses me as I've before just seen her shake hands and kiss cheeks with the Queen. No curtsey in sight.

The traditional norms (amongst themselves) appear to vary on occasion and thus can lead to confusion for those of us observing.

What would MM's curtsey to Camilla be classified as?
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Unnecessary and rediculous. They are equals.
 
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:previous: I believe it has been posted somewhere in this thread, and signified her respect for the dead. In this case, the mother of her two grandchildren.

You'll note that other members of the royal family also bowed their heads in respect.
 
:previous: Thanks for bringing me up to speed that this little clip had been posted. I appreciate it. :flowers:
 
Madame Royale said:
You would expect Lalla Meryem, the Crown Princely couple and others to do so. They are princes' and princess'.

Maria Teresa surpirses me as I've before just seen her shake hands and kiss cheeks with the Queen. No curtsey in sight.

The traditional norms (amongst themselves) appear to vary on occasion and thus can lead to confusion for those of us observing.



Unnecessary and rediculous. They are equals.
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I do not believe the Grand Duchess curtsied to the Queen today. Just the hand shake and kiss.
 
NGalitzine said:
I do not believe the Grand Duchess curtsied to the Queen today. Just the hand shake and kiss.
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Thanks for that. I thought it to sound rather obscure.

Thanks for bringing me up to speed that this little clip had been posted. I appreciate it. :flowers:
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No problem. Happy to answer a fellow poster :)
 
Iluvbertie said:
Consorts to curtsey to Heads of State - they aren't of the same rank. Charlene would therefore be correct in curtseying to The Queen just as Philip would bow to the various monarchs who are Heads of State but also to those who are crowned as Queens' Consort. He would regularly be seen giving a bow to the Queen Mother - a crowned Queen while he is only a Prince. It isn't only position but also title that matters.
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That was my opinion as well. I distinctly remember years ago seeing a photograph of Princess Grace curtsying to QEII.

I always assumed that it was because Grace was a Serene Highness and a Princess, and thus subordinate in rank to HM whether or not she was the wife of a Head of State.

In any case, Princess Charlene's reverence was elegant, flawlessly executed. :)
 
Artemisia said:
Actually, the Emperor bows to quite a few people. Not because he has to (as a reigning Emperor, he outranks pretty much everyone else), but because he chooses to as per Japanese tradition. For instance, when he was recently discharged from hospital following an operation, both he and Empress Michiko bowed to the doctors who had performed the surgery (needless to say, the royal couple got even lowers bows from them).

As you have rightly noted, Heads of State do not bow or curtsey to each other. Their spouses, however must bow to other Heads of State by protocol. Thus, while Queen Elizabeth and King Harald of Norway don't have to curtsey/bow to each other, Prince Philip can bow to King Harald, and Queen Sonja - to Queen Elizabeth. In addition, male royals (whether monarchs or consorts) usually slightly bow in front of female consorts of fellow royals as well, although they are certainly not required to by protocol.

Princess Charlene had to curtsey to Queen Elizabeth and chose to curtsey to Prince Philip as well; both were correct by protocol rules. However, her decision to curtsey to Prince Charles is purely mark of respect; she most certainly didn't have to as consort of a Head of State.
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thanks artemisia and Iluvbertie for these very complete explanations. it does make sense that charlene curtsied the queen, yet i found it somehow odd as i doubt the rest of the consorts did so (although again, all of them are older than charlene and with comparable years as queens as
elizabeth, and probably know elizabeth well. ).
on the other hand, i'd include the grand duchess in the last group of women, she herself has been grand duchess for a while now and probably knows elizabeth well. maybe the difference has to do with personal knowledge of the royal you meet: if you are friends, a hug/kiss may be appropriate.
on the other hand, i guess it's better to be safe than sorry, hence why charlene curtsied to all senior royals. thank godness at least she isn't curtsying to same-rank royals, like MM!


Moonmaiden23 said:
In any case, Princess Charlene's reverence was elegant, flawlessly executed. :)
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i certainly agree. it was a nicely done, deep curtsy. it reminds me of the curtsy MM once did to the queen of england as well, very low, gracious curtsy. i guess they both have been clearly practising and now they just like to show off their newly-acquired techniques! :)
 
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I saw a photo of Mette-Marit's first curtsy to QEII. I thought it a bit theatrical and over the top...and I remember there was quite a bit of discussion on the message boards.

I think she was so nervous and concerned about getting it perfectly that she overdid it.

I'm sure that she is probably a pro at it by now.
 
Does Prince Philip bow to all the monarchs then? I've only seen a picture of him with the Emperor.
 
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Instead of trying to over-complicate matters when the customary rules of protocol don't appear to fit the circumstance, why not take them for what they were? That is, purely personal and special gestures of respect and deference to an 86-year old reigning Monarch celebrating 60 years on the throne, and in her own home (whether Windsor Castle or BP), from one member of the royal caste to another. Beatrix's wide-armed greeting wasn't "protocol" either, it was personal.
 
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Alexey 1904 said:
What would MM's curtsey to Camilla be classified as?
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A sign of respect she didn't have to show, but chose to.

Moonmaiden23 said:
I saw a photo of Mette-Marit's first curtsy to QEII. I thought it a bit theatrical and over the top...and I remember there was quite a bit of discussion on the message boards.
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Mette-Marit always performs a full, deep curtsey. It's not wrong; in fact, it used to be the correct way. Nowadays, few ladies curtsey in that manner, but it most certainly isn't wrong, over the top, or theatrical. Charlene's curtsey to Queen Elizabeth was quite similar to Mette-Marit's, but her curtsey to Prince Charles was a more "modern" one - just slightly bending knees.

Esmerelda said:
Does Prince Philip bow to all the monarchs then? I've only seen a picture of him with the Emperor.
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By protocol, Prince Philip has to bow to all reigning Monarchs. He also usually slightly bows (and kisses the hand) of female consorts of the Monarchs as a sign of respect; otherwise, he wouldn't be required to bow to consorts as they are his equals.
 
Artemisia, perhaps we are not discussing the same photo of Mette-Marit. The one I am referencing displayed the Princess with her arms splayed rather awkwardly out to the sides as she was curtsying. It was her very first meeting with the Queen, perhaps she was simply nervous. In any case MM is certainly a graceful, confident curtsy at this stage in her Royal career.
 
Moonmaiden23 said:
Artemisia, perhaps we are not discussing the same photo of Mette-Marit. The one I am referencing displayed the Princess with her arms splayed rather awkwardly out to the sides as she was curtsying. It was her very first meeting with the Queen, perhaps she was simply nervous. In any case MM is certainly a graceful, confident curtsy at this stage in her Royal career.
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I was referring to this curtsey by Mette-Marit (she was pregnant at the time).
I assume you mean this one from her very first meeting with the Queen. I always thought that was one of the most graceful curtseys I have ever seen. :)
 
I think M-M's initial curtsey to the Queen was one of the most elegant I've ever seen as well and reminds me of such obeisances at formal court presentations of the past. Maybe to some it seemed too OTT, but I can understand why M-M performed a grand gesture to a highly respected and venerated monarch.
 
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Artemisia said:
I was referring to this curtsey by Mette-Marit (she was pregnant at the time).
I assume you mean this one from her very first meeting with the Queen. I always thought that was one of the most graceful curtseys I have ever seen. :)
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No, it was neither of those...you are right, she is as graceful as a swan in both curtsies! :)
 
I must say, I like Mette-Marit's first curtsey to Queen Elizabeth. I appreciate why it would be over the top to many, but it reminds me of the pomp and circumstance that once surrounded royalty. And, judging from the photo, Mette-Marit performed a very graceful curtsey...and Elizabeth is one deserving monarch.
 
kittencrews said:
was Ernst frowned upon when he kissed the Queen's cheek?? I don't remember hearing anything about it...
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Why should he ? He's her cousin. His Great-Great Grandfather and her Great-Great Grandfather were brothers I believe.
 
mybags said:
I wouldn't think so, as Ernst-August and the Queen are cousins. An interesting fact is that E-A would be King of England if females were not allowed to inherit the throne and they were allowed to marry Catholics. By the way, E-A asked the Queen's permission to marry Caroline because of his great respect for the Queen.
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Actually, the male line STUART heir would be King, and he is HRH Franz, The Duke of Bavaria, Head of the Bavarian Royal House.
 
KatieLouise said:
I don't know if I've ever seen an American President bow to a monarch... if they do, does anyone have any pictures of this? :)
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No way they do this. Heads of State do not bow to one another, or curtsey to one another. As much of a Royalist as I am, if I ever heard of or saw our President do this, I would be incensed. He represents us, and our Sovereignty, and no monarch is allowed to infringe upon my Sovereignty as an American Citizen.

That said, I am a royalist and wish we had our own monarch.
 
Australian said:
From my understanding- The President does not bow to any royals. But in that picture, he wasnt a president, he was a little boy so he was required to bow.
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No one, is "required" to bow or curtsey and the Queen is too dignified to ever say anything to anyone who doesn't do it.

People bow or curtsey to the Queen or any Royal for that matter because they want to and because its decent custom and considered good manners. At least in all the European monarchies its this way. In Arabic monarchies it might be a different matter, as well as in African & other places. In those places there may be laws requiring people to do this. But in Britain and other European monarchies there are no laws requiring on to bow or curtsey.
 
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