Bowing and Curtseying


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Diarist- Thanks a lot for the information and clarification of different situations :)
 
I've heard that Prince Andrew, Edward, Anne and all of them will have to bow to Kate now. Is that true?
 
There are two forms of Precedence: At Official Events [which is based on law, custom & practice and tradition] and Precdence at Private Royal Events which is based on the Queen's own wishes.

A revised Order of Precedence is to be issued in the next few days according to The Times [regarded as a 'paper of record'].

I think that what we will all find interesting is the [Private] Order of Precedence that will apply when only Royal Ladies are present. There was a lot of publicity over this just after the marriage of Charles and Camilla when in 2005 the Queen put the Princess Royal and Princess Alexandra over Camilla! During the marriage of Charles and Diana, in Private Precedence, the Princess of Wales ranked second to the Queen.

Orders of Precedence do not follow the Line of Succession.

Where the Private Order of Precedence is concerned, The Queen seems to have been acknowledging the importance of 'Blood' Princesses by her decision in 2005. At the same time, my own personal view is that the change in 2005 wasn't quite for the reasons implied in the Film 'The Queen' [which also implied that her Majesty did not know the Order of Precedence, as I am pretty sure she did] i.e. that the Queen did not want the Princess Royal and Princess Alexandra 'to be demoted' by Charles' remarriage but instead was to reflect her acknowledgement that a number of her subjects were still unhappy with the remarriage of Charles in view of Camilla's part in the popular Princess of Wales' marital unhappiness, and therefore Her Majesty wanted to make a gesture that showed that Camilla was not to profit unduly for her role in the breakdown of Diana's marriage.

Because of Catherine's relative youth, I am pretty sure that the Order of Private Precedence will show the Princess Royal and Princess Alexandra as ranking after the Queen, then Camilla, and then probably Catherine - although Princesses Beatrice and Eugenie are of course blood Princesses, my own opinion is that as Catherine is married to the direct male line heir, the Queen will decide that she can outrank the Yorks. We will see.

Alex
 
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Charlotte_Aster said:
Diarist- Thanks a lot for the information and clarification of different situations :)
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Why, Thank You Charlotte.

One thing that I think I shoud add is that to me, knowledge of formal etiquette is never as important as 'basic good matters' and if , say, anyone was to suddenly find him or herself unexpectedly 'in the Royal prescence', basic common sense rules of being polite, not pushing or shoving to the front, letting the Royal Person speak first etc etc would safely carry him or her through the encounter!

In practice, almost all Royal Occasions are so minutely 'choreographed' that 'chance encounters' and 'unexpected occurrences' are almost completely unheard of! At any Royal Occasion, there are Ladies in Waiting, Private Secretaries, Members of the Household etc who all 'hovver by' ready to step in to advise and assist. Nothing is really left to chance.

I can give one example involving me! I was helping at a Diplomatic charity sale event, with a number of stalls displaying goods from the various participating countries. Princess Alexandra was opening the event, and having done so, began touring the stalls. To everyone's surprise, rather than just saying 'how interesting' or 'I hope that you have a successful day', she astonished people by purchasing a few items! I was under the impression that Royalty never carries money and presumed that if a member of the Royal Family wanted something, you just 'gave it to them', but as I was placing the purchase in a bag, as if by magic, a Lady in Waiting appeared with the exact money and took the purchase. Like I said, nothing seems to be left to chance!

Alex
 
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here is Crown Princess Victoria and daniel going up to the ater
victoiadaniel.jpg


here is leaving the alter
victoiadaniel1.jpg

and for the other side
victoiadaniel2.jpg
http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/5041/victoiadaniel2.jpg
 
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Blue Stocking, the whole purpose of the bow or curtsey is to have your head lower than the person you are b/c to. You are already there. Another thing I notice is that the b/c involves a slow nod of the head with the chin touching your shirt. IF you can do that you are curtseying. In any case, I don't think it is obligatory in England except for the uppity ups to bow to each other.
 
How very interesting, but I have never heard of this in relation to the BRF - the one thing about many of our Royal Family is that its members are quite small - the Queen is no more than 5'4'', Princess Margaret and The Queen Mother were even smaller; even Prince Philip - who looks tall (or did when he was taller, he is now stopped a little with age] - is actually a shade under 5'10''. And whatever the Royal PR machine used to say back in the 1980's, Princess Diana was always an inch taller than Charles, even without heels. If the person bowing or making the curtsey was trying to get lower than certain members of the BRF, there would be the equivalent of a limbo dance! And fortunately, chins don't have to touch our shirts either! Perhaps someone here with knowledge of European Royalty could give their imput here?

Bowing and Curtseying in Britain is now reserved for members of the Royal Family [although it may be the practice in some religions, but not in the Church of England] and even then it is becoming less prevalent - see what I have said above. The aim of British Society is now to try to reflect a meritocracy, and in my humble opinion it matters less and less who your father was, but the sort of person you yourself are. [There is a lovely sculpture at Royal Ascot reflecting the work the Queen has undertaken during the course of her reign to unite the traditional upper and working classes.]

Catherine Middleton's marriage is a prime example of someone who was not drawn from the upper classes or even upper middle classes, come to that, who nevetheless came into contact with the heir to the throne through university rather through noble birth giving her an entree into Society and thus a place at Court , and then went on to marry him in what many see as having the prospects of a very successful union.
 
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The BRF do bow/curtesy to each yes? Even if princess and prince? Also what do you make of this pic below why is Tatiana curtesying?

http://www.daylife.com/photo/07pscRd5HM2L3?__site=daylife&q=royal+wedding

Also does the BRF members bow/curtesy to other Royals? My orignal question was Since neither William nor Kate are the heirs to the throne would it be proper for them to curtesy/bow to Crown Prince Couples?
 
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Yes, why is Tatiana curtseying? I remember seeing a clip at Crown Princess Victoria of Sweden's wedding where the guests were eating the cake and Tatiana curtseyed to both Victoria and Daniel. Victoria outranks her but I don't think Daniel and Michael do.
 
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Josefine said:
here is Crown Princess Victoria and daniel going up to the ater.
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Is it the proper thing for the person/people being bowed/curtseyed to to bow back. You can see the monarchs doing that in the video.
 
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Esmerelda said:
Yes, why is Tatiana curtseying? I remember seeing a clip at Crown Princess Victoria of Sweden's wedding where the guests were eating the cake and Tatiana curtseyed to both Victoria and Daniel. Victoria outranks her but I don't think Daniel and Michael do.
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As Victoria's husband Daniel is equal to her in rank and thus outranks Tatianna..... Still unsure why she curtsied to the Prince Michael? His wife curtesied to the King of Greece so maybe it has something to do with Michael's mother being a Greek Princess?
 
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MRSJ said:
His wife curtesied to the King of Greece so maybe it has something to do with Michael's mother being a Greek Princess?
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I am sure that such a deep curtsey it was for personal reasons like this, as a sign of respect because of the family connection; and doesn't Princess Michael look absolutely beautiful in that photograph!

What is the general practice in relation to curtseying to a former monarch when the monarchy has been ousted?
 
Princes and princesses always curtsey or bow to a monarch, reigning or deposed.

On formal occasions, it appears that one monarch shows deference to another when in the latter's realm.

In this YouTube video of the Queen's relaxing, about 1.30 minutes in, it appears that Queen Beatrix is curtseying to Queen Elizabeth. It may not be Beatrix, of course, but it very much looks like her.

YouTube - The Queen off duty

So far as Tatiana's curtsey to Prince Michael goes, it appears that equally, princes and princesses of the host realm outrank others.

I could stand to be corrected, however.
 
Polly said:
In this YouTube video of the Queen's relaxing, about 1.30 minutes in, it appears that Queen Beatrix is curtseying to Queen Elizabeth. It may not be Beatrix, of course, but it very much looks like her.
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Good morning Polly,

I'm not that sure it is the Queen Beatrix...
 
I don't think so either. Some subtle differences with the hair and nose..
 
Polly said:
In this YouTube video of the Queen's relaxing, about 1.30 minutes in, it appears that Queen Beatrix is curtseying to Queen Elizabeth. It may not be Beatrix, of course, but it very much looks like her.
Click to expand...


It's the Dowager Duchess of Grafton. Former Lady of the Bedchamber and now Mistress of the Robes.
 
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Ah, thank you Madame Royale. I thought it strange, but it did look like Queen Beatrix, about 10 years ago. I'm happy to be set right.

Good video, isn't it?
 
Should Catherine have bowed her head when curtsey to Queen Elizabeth. It appeared she smiled and kept eye contact the whole time. Diana did a deep curtsey and bowed her head. Was Catherine disrespectful?
 
Maybe she was afraid her tiara would fall off.
 
Polly said:
...In this YouTube video... it appears that Queen Beatrix is curtseying to Queen Elizabeth. It may not be Beatrix, of course, but it very much looks like her.I could stand to be corrected, however.
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Look like Queen Beatrix, but it isn't her :)
 
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actually after reading that article.. it's not that bad and the writer should have known that 2 ladies that have married into the family that the junior member based on line to the throne has to curtsy up.. meaning if it's just Camilla & Catherine. Catherine must curtsy to Camilla since Camilla is also Duchess and married to Heir apparent. For the most part the new order of precedence.. is a mess. In some ways I agree that a Royal born princess that has her own Princess title of right should outrank someone who married into the family. It'll be tough to remember. so when you walk into a room.. you'll have to do some fast thinking to figure out who bows to whom.. glad I don't have to do it.
 
The Order of Precedence applies here, right? If so, in England and Wales, both Camilla and Kate have ranks below the daughters and granddaughters (whether with a royal title or not). I guess blood relations matter here. Being both part of the family only through marriage that even Zarah Philips precedes them.

At this point, Kate should curstey first to Camilla as the former is only the wife of the grandson of the sovereign while the latter is the wife of the son of the Queen. Even the Countess of Wessex precedes Kate in this order.
Polly said:
Princes and princesses always curtsey or bow to a monarch, reigning or deposed.
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I think I've read that one of the Spanish Infantas (either Elena or Cristina, not Letizia) refused to curtsy first to a deposed monarch, one of the Italian or German ones, I think. Anyone who could shed light whether this act was disrespectful?
 
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Do they curtsey to their uncle Constantine of Greece. If they do and if that's true, it's hypocritical.
 
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That would depend. Constantine was an actual crowned King while the current Italians and Austrians are more claimants and never ones that were ever really in that position.
The last true king of Italy died in 1983 and the last emperor of Austria died in 1922.
The last Kaiser of Germany died in 1942.
 
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I'm not sure which sovereign (pretender) the Infanta refused to curtsey first.... or whether it was a duke, prince, king or emperor. I've read it a few years back so my exact recall of it is not perfect.

But, as a rule (whether reigning or not, was the infanta supposed to curtsey first to said person? I can't imagine her being criticised for refusing IF that was the proper protocol...
 
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monica17 said:
The Order of Precedence applies here, right?...
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again it's a confusing mess... because it always depends on who is in the room at the time but as I understand it, The Countess of Wessex will always have to curtsey to Catherine since Catherine is married to 2nd in line of the throne and Prince Edward is currently 7th. However, Catherine would have to curtsey to Prince Edward and by default the Countess of Wessex if in the same and by herself without Prince William since Prince Edward is royal born and outranks Catherine.

If we are just talking about the ladies minus the husbands. I'm still a little confused. Dabrett's hierarchy tables state that the Sovereign's daughter has precedence over granddaughter's despite the fact that Princess Beatrice would at least in theory outrank them all (not counting Her Majesty The Queen, of course) since she is royal born , a princess in her own right, and first female who is 5th in the line of succession and ahead of HRH Princess Royal who is 10th in line of succession. :wacko:
 
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