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06-26-2012, 06:07 PM
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Heir Apparent
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Join Date: Jun 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemisia
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- A Queen Consort must only curtsey to Reigning Heads of State (Kings and Queens Regnant).
- A Queen Mother must only curtsey to Reigning Heads of State (Kings and Queens Regnant), as well as the current Queen Consort.
- A Queen Dowager must only curtsey to Reigning Heads of State (Kings and Queens Regnant), as well as the current Queen Consort, and the Queen Mother.
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Have we ever seen Queen Sonja or Queen Silvia curtsey to QMII? They do see each other rather frequently so if this is the case photographic evidence of a consort needing to make a curtsey to a regnant must be available. I don't recall either Sonja or Marie Therese dropping a curtsey to QEII at the Windsor luncheon.
Is there any photograph of Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother or Queen Ingrid or Queen Fabiola ever dropping a curtsey to a visiting reigning monarch. Once widowed they all attended many state events for visiting foreign sovereigns so there should be photographic evidence of this requirement to curtsey.
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06-26-2012, 06:33 PM
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Serene Highness
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Join Date: Jun 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KittyAtlanta
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If something were to happen to William-heaven forbid- before he and Kate have a child, what would her position be in the family should she choose not to remarry?
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06-26-2012, 06:42 PM
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Heir Apparent
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: KittyLand Junction, United States
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If William had been invested as Prince of Wales, she would remain the Princess of Wales, no?
If William had not been invested, I believe she would be the Duchess of Cambridge.
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06-26-2012, 07:13 PM
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Courtier
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They kissed on cheeks. Hugs to DOE.
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06-26-2012, 07:15 PM
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Heir Apparent
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The Master of the Household said at the time of Williams wedding that although Buckingham Palace is frequently asked for a copy of the official protocol book no such book exists, that protocol is really just a question of good manners and what makes sense at the time.
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06-26-2012, 09:16 PM
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Imperial Majesty
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Back a few pages ago there was a short video of a girl in TX preforming the very deep exaggerated bow, as I understand it something similar used to be done in England some time back. I read in a book that the women would almost sit back on their heels and then rise unaided when being presented to court/monarch.
LaRae
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06-26-2012, 09:34 PM
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Heir Apparent
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Right, that's the video I posted of the Texas curtsey, or Texas dip, as it's known. It's really low to the floor where the lady crosses her back leg and basically sits on her haunches while bowing deeply. There is an escort to assist them rising, though.
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06-26-2012, 09:43 PM
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Heir Apparent
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Quote:
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they are still outranked by Queens Regnant, so yes, they do have to curtsey to them.
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A Queen Consort is not required to curtsey to a Queen or King regnant. They share the style and designation of ' Majesty' and are thus on equal terms.
Queen Silvia of Sweden does not curtsey to Queen Elizabeth of Great Britain nor does Queen Sirikit of Thailand curtsey to Queen Beatrix of the Netherlands. Queen Paola of Belgium does not curtsey to King Juan Carlos of Spain and Queen Sofia of Spain does not curtsey to King Harald of Norway.
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06-26-2012, 10:12 PM
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Nobility
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Join Date: Dec 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemisia
- A Queen Regnant (or any Head of State) doesn't curtsey to anyone.
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Just to clarify does this mean that a Queen Regnant would not ever have to curtsey to an Emperor? Would an Emperor who is an imperial majesty not outrank her? Or are they equal because they are both heads of state? Sorry if these questions sound dumb.
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06-26-2012, 10:38 PM
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Heir Apparent
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They are the same rank. If you saw the Jubilee luncheon at Windsor QEII definitely did not curtsey to any of her guests including the Emperor and Empress of Japan.
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06-26-2012, 11:17 PM
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Heir Apparent
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Even Prince Albert of Monaco, as ruler of his own country, isn't obliged to bow to another sovereign even though he's a prince. If he did so to the Queen of England or Emperor of Japan, I'd think it more a matter of respect than protocol.
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A book should be either a bandit or a rebel or a man in the crowd..... D.H. Lawrence
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06-26-2012, 11:49 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noble Consort Ming
Just to clarify does this mean that a Queen Regnant would not ever have to curtsey to an Emperor? Would an Emperor who is an imperial majesty not outrank her? Or are they equal because they are both heads of state? Sorry if these questions sound dumb.
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The question is not by any means dumb. 
A Head of State is still Head of State - whatever his/her title. Thus, an Emperor, a King, a Queen Regnant, a Reining Prince, a Reigning Duke and a President all have equal rank as Heads of State. As such, a Queen Regnant would most definitely not be obliged to curtsey to an Emperor - or any other Head of State.
In past, an Emperor was a Monarch of vast lands which usually consisted of many territories and/or countries. Usually, Kings, Princes and Dukes were his vassals; obviously, he had precedence over them. However, nowadays that is no longer relevant, so all Heads of State (elected and hereditary) are equal in rank.
Now, their precedence depends on the day they assumed the office. That means the King of Thailand (who became Head of State in 1946) has the highest precedence among all Heads of States, followed by Queen Elizabeth (Monarch since 1952).
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06-28-2012, 06:01 AM
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Nobility
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Artemisia, could put here some reference on the queens consort's obligation by protocol to curtsy to the kings and queens regnant? I mean, it's obvious they are not heads of state and as such, not equal in status with the Sovereigns and republican heads of state but IMO it is customary that they take fully their husbands' status and precedence.
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06-28-2012, 08:26 AM
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Heir Apparent
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Do we have any picture of Kate curtseing?? The only I saw is at her wedding, paying respect to the Queen.
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06-28-2012, 08:57 AM
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Royal Highness
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Location: Chicago, United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemisia
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In photos, I've seen I thought Beatrice & Sophie's curtseys were the same. They look like they are trying to sit down rather than a proper curtsey.
Autumn's had the right idea but hasn't aligned her legs.
Camilla, Kate, Princess Michael and Diana performed proper curtsey.
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06-28-2012, 11:10 AM
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Commoner
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06-28-2012, 11:31 AM
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Aristocracy
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may sound naive, but where did this whole curtsy thing start from? i understand deference, but it all just seems so complicated... assisted, unassisted, cross leg, this and that. whew, just seems like hard work!!!
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06-28-2012, 03:57 PM
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Administrator in Memoriam
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Discussion of titles and definitions has been moved to the Questions About Styles and Titles thread.
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Seeking information? Check out the extensive Royal A-Z
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06-29-2012, 02:24 PM
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Serene Highness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stella1971
may sound naive, but where did this whole curtsy thing start from? i understand deference, but it all just seems so complicated... assisted, unassisted, cross leg, this and that. whew, just seems like hard work!!!
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The curtsey as we know it began in the 17th century, before that men and women both made some kind of bow when greeting others. As for the rituals of curtseying those seems to have been formed during the Victorian era (from Wikipedia), here's a page about the curtsey in the Victorian ballroom: Capering & Kickery: The Lady's Courtesy in the Victorian Ballroom
Quote:
Originally Posted by Queen Camilla
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This photo of Autumn Phillips shows why it's best to cross the legs before doing the curtsey, especially when wearing a short tight skirt.
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06-29-2012, 03:03 PM
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Nobility
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Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Detroit, United States
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I thought curtseying came way earlier than the Victorian era. Didn't women curtsey as a form of greeting to most everyone in the regency period like in Jane Austen flicks.
A French language source I have says curtseying goes back to the middle ages where it was done by a woman before dancing.
Edited to add: I just realized that the post above mine didn't say the curtsey came from Victorian times. I misread.
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