Bowing and Curtseying

[Charlotte_Aster]

Diarist- Thanks a lot for the information and clarification of different situations :)

[CrownPrincess5]

I've heard that Prince Andrew, Edward, Anne and all of them will have to bow to Kate now. Is that true?

[Diarist]

There are two forms of Precedence: At Official Events [which is based on law, custom & practice and tradition] and Precdence at Private Royal Events which is based on the Queen's own wishes.

A revised Order of Precedence is to be issued in the next few days according to The Times [regarded as a 'paper of record'].

I think that what we will all find interesting is the [Private] Order of Precedence that will apply when only Royal Ladies are present. There was a lot of publicity over this just after the marriage of Charles and Camilla when in 2005 the Queen put the Princess Royal and Princess Alexandra over Camilla! During the marriage of Charles and Diana, in Private Precedence, the Princess of Wales ranked second to the Queen.

Orders of Precedence do not follow the Line of Succession.

Where the Private Order of Precedence is concerned, The Queen seems to have been acknowledging the importance of 'Blood' Princesses by her decision in 2005. At the same time, my own personal view is that the change in 2005 wasn't quite for the reasons implied in the Film 'The Queen' [which also implied that her Majesty did not know the Order of Precedence, as I am pretty sure she did] i.e. that the Queen did not want the Princess Royal and Princess Alexandra 'to be demoted' by Charles' remarriage but instead was to reflect her acknowledgement that a number of her subjects were still unhappy with the remarriage of Charles in view of Camilla's part in the popular Princess of Wales' marital unhappiness, and therefore Her Majesty wanted to make a gesture that showed that Camilla was not to profit unduly for her role in the breakdown of Diana's marriage.

Because of Catherine's relative youth, I am pretty sure that the Order of Private Precedence will show the Princess Royal and Princess Alexandra as ranking after the Queen, then Camilla, and then probably Catherine - although Princesses Beatrice and Eugenie are of course blood Princesses, my own opinion is that as Catherine is married to the direct male line heir, the Queen will decide that she can outrank the Yorks. We will see.

Alex

[Diarist]

Originally Posted by Charlotte_Aster

Diarist- Thanks a lot for the information and clarification of different situations :)

Why, Thank You Charlotte.

One thing that I think I shoud add is that to me, knowledge of formal etiquette is never as important as 'basic good matters' and if , say, anyone was to suddenly find him or herself unexpectedly 'in the Royal prescence', basic common sense rules of being polite, not pushing or shoving to the front, letting the Royal Person speak first etc etc would safely carry him or her through the encounter!

In practice, almost all Royal Occasions are so minutely 'choreographed' that 'chance encounters' and 'unexpected occurrences' are almost completely unheard of! At any Royal Occasion, there are Ladies in Waiting, Private Secretaries, Members of the Household etc who all 'hovver by' ready to step in to advise and assist. Nothing is really left to chance.

I can give one example involving me! I was helping at a Diplomatic charity sale event, with a number of stalls displaying goods from the various participating countries. Princess Alexandra was opening the event, and having done so, began touring the stalls. To everyone's surprise, rather than just saying 'how interesting' or 'I hope that you have a successful day', she astonished people by purchasing a few items! I was under the impression that Royalty never carries money and presumed that if a member of the Royal Family wanted something, you just 'gave it to them', but as I was placing the purchase in a bag, as if by magic, a Lady in Waiting appeared with the exact money and took the purchase. Like I said, nothing seems to be left to chance!

Alex

[Josefine]

here is Crown Princess Victoria and daniel going up to the ater


here is leaving the alter

and for the other side

[FanofMonaco]

Blue Stocking, the whole purpose of the bow or curtsey is to have your head lower than the person you are b/c to. You are already there. Another thing I notice is that the b/c involves a slow nod of the head with the chin touching your shirt. IF you can do that you are curtseying. In any case, I don't think it is obligatory in England except for the uppity ups to bow to each other.

[Diarist]

How very interesting, but I have never heard of this in relation to the BRF - the one thing about many of our Royal Family is that its members are quite small - the Queen is no more than 5'4'', Princess Margaret and The Queen Mother were even smaller; even Prince Philip - who looks tall (or did when he was taller, he is now stopped a little with age] - is actually a shade under 5'10''. And whatever the Royal PR machine used to say back in the 1980's, Princess Diana was always an inch taller than Charles, even without heels. If the person bowing or making the curtsey was trying to get lower than certain members of the BRF, there would be the equivalent of a limbo dance! And fortunately, chins don't have to touch our shirts either! Perhaps someone here with knowledge of European Royalty could give their imput here?

Bowing and Curtseying in Britain is now reserved for members of the Royal Family [although it may be the practice in some religions, but not in the Church of England] and even then it is becoming less prevalent - see what I have said above. The aim of British Society is now to try to reflect a meritocracy, and in my humble opinion it matters less and less who your father was, but the sort of person you yourself are. [There is a lovely sculpture at Royal Ascot reflecting the work the Queen has undertaken during the course of her reign to unite the traditional upper and working classes.]

Catherine Middleton's marriage is a prime example of someone who was not drawn from the upper classes or even upper middle classes, come to that, who nevetheless came into contact with the heir to the throne through university rather through noble birth giving her an entree into Society and thus a place at Court , and then went on to marry him in what many see as having the prospects of a very successful union.

[Josefine]

here is kent curtsy for the former king of greece

[MRSJ]

The BRF do bow/curtesy to each yes? Even if princess and prince? Also what do you make of this pic below why is Tatiana curtesying?

http://www.daylife.com/photo/07pscRd...=royal+wedding

Also does the BRF members bow/curtesy to other Royals? My orignal question was Since neither William nor Kate are the heirs to the throne would it be proper for them to curtesy/bow to Crown Prince Couples?

[Esmerelda]

Yes, why is Tatiana curtseying? I remember seeing a clip at Crown Princess Victoria of Sweden's wedding where the guests were eating the cake and Tatiana curtseyed to both Victoria and Daniel. Victoria outranks her but I don't think Daniel and Michael do.

[Esmerelda]

Originally Posted by Josefine

here is Crown Princess Victoria and daniel going up to the ater.

Is it the proper thing for the person/people being bowed/curtseyed to to bow back. You can see the monarchs doing that in the video.

[MRSJ]

Originally Posted by Esmerelda

Yes, why is Tatiana curtseying? I remember seeing a clip at Crown Princess Victoria of Sweden's wedding where the guests were eating the cake and Tatiana curtseyed to both Victoria and Daniel. Victoria outranks her but I don't think Daniel and Michael do.

As Victoria's husband Daniel is equal to her in rank and thus outranks Tatianna..... Still unsure why she curtsied to the Prince Michael? His wife curtesied to the King of Greece so maybe it has something to do with Michael's mother being a Greek Princess?

[Roslyn]

Originally Posted by MRSJ

His wife curtesied to the King of Greece so maybe it has something to do with Michael's mother being a Greek Princess?

I am sure that such a deep curtsey it was for personal reasons like this, as a sign of respect because of the family connection; and doesn't Princess Michael look absolutely beautiful in that photograph!

What is the general practice in relation to curtseying to a former monarch when the monarchy has been ousted?

[Polly]

Princes and princesses always curtsey or bow to a monarch, reigning or deposed.

On formal occasions, it appears that one monarch shows deference to another when in the latter's realm.

In this YouTube video of the Queen's relaxing, about 1.30 minutes in, it appears that Queen Beatrix is curtseying to Queen Elizabeth. It may not be Beatrix, of course, but it very much looks like her.

YouTube - The Queen off duty

So far as Tatiana's curtsey to Prince Michael goes, it appears that equally, princes and princesses of the host realm outrank others.

I could stand to be corrected, however.

[Comte de Hainaut]

Originally Posted by Polly

In this YouTube video of the Queen's relaxing, about 1.30 minutes in, it appears that Queen Beatrix is curtseying to Queen Elizabeth. It may not be Beatrix, of course, but it very much looks like her.

Good morning Polly,

I'm not that sure it is the Queen Beatrix...

[Esmerelda]

I don't think so either. Some subtle differences with the hair and nose..

[Madame Royale]

Originally Posted by Polly

In this YouTube video of the Queen's relaxing, about 1.30 minutes in, it appears that Queen Beatrix is curtseying to Queen Elizabeth. It may not be Beatrix, of course, but it very much looks like her.

It's the Dowager Duchess of Grafton. Former Lady of the Bedchamber and now Mistress of the Robes.

[Polly]

Ah, thank you Madame Royale. I thought it strange, but it did look like Queen Beatrix, about 10 years ago. I'm happy to be set right.

Good video, isn't it?

[caitydrew]

Should Catherine have bowed her head when curtsey to Queen Elizabeth. It appeared she smiled and kept eye contact the whole time. Diana did a deep curtsey and bowed her head. Was Catherine disrespectful?

[Esmerelda]

Maybe she was afraid her tiara would fall off.