Bowing and Curtseying

[sarahedwards2]

I read that Princesses Elizabeth and Margaret hugged their parents when they left the house as Duke and Duchess and curtsied to them when they returned after the abdication as King and Queen.

No, they were told that when their father came home at lunch he would be King, and that they would have to curtsy to him.

 

[IloveCP]

In The King's Speech, the two princesses curtsied to him after he became King. I wonder if that really happened.

 

[vkrish]

I read that Princesses Elizabeth and Margaret hugged their parents when they left the house as Duke and Duchess and curtsied to them when they returned after the abdication as King and Queen.

I find all these phrases a bit dramatic, arent they?

Hugged them while they left, curtsied when they arrived..
Climbed up as Princess, climbed down as Queen..
Curtsied her first and then scolded her for wearing short skirt..

They may not be factually wrong, but seem to be added just to endear the people emotionally to the said royals.
Anyways, its always cool to read such things.
Such 'dramatism' is found more in the writings and commentaries of 50s, 60s, and invariably in all British Pathe videos. I hardly see it nowadays.

 

[Lee-Z]

Prince and Princess Michael of Kent receive curtsey from Leonie Frieda at launch of book The Deadly Sisterhood at Kensington Palace | Mail Online

Thought it was a nice illustration for this thread..

 

[Dman]

I know some people get into the technical stuff of who should curtsey to who but I really don't think Catherine curtsey's to Charles & Camilla. At least I haven't seen her do so. I think the main people Catherine and other young members just curtsey to The Queen.

 

[Artemisia]

I think the rule of thumb these days is that you curtsey to the Monarch and his/her spouse, and then only the first time you meet them during the day.
It has to be some super-official (or a more relaxed official one, like the Jubilee Lunch) event for more curtsies to pop up.

Most of the discussion in this thread as to who must curtsey to whom is indeed technicality; it might have been relevant a century or even a couple of decades ago, when protocol and etiquette were strictly adhered to, but not in our times.

Mostly, it's a question of precedence; for instance, strictly speaking Kate should curtsey to Camilla and Sophie (when they are on their own, unaccompanied by spouses), but we have never seen that happen. On the other hand, Mette-Marit of Norway shouldn't curtsey to her peers (fellow Crown Princesses) and Charlene of Monaco - to anyone at all (since she's the wife of Head of State), yet we have seen both curtsey to Camilla (who is Mette-Marit's equal and actually has lower rank than Charlene).

 

[vkrish]

I know some people get into the technical stuff of who should curtsey to who but I really don't think Catherine curtsey's to Charles & Camilla. At least I haven't seen her do so. I think the main people Catherine and other young members just curtsey to The Queen.

Oh Come on, they dont keep curtseying each other..They just bow and curtsey the Queen and DoE.. I doubt if they bow/curtsey DoE..cos I havent seen anyone curtseying him, even when they both are together. This year Trooping balcony was the first time I saw someone(Kate) from family curtsey him

 

[Meraude]

On the other hand, Mette-Marit of Norway shouldn't curtsey to her peers (fellow Crown Princesses) and Charlene of Monaco - to anyone at all (since she's the wife of Head of State), yet we have seen both curtsey to Camilla (who is Mette-Marit's equal and actually has lower rank than Charlene).

That probably have to do with them seeing Camilla as senior in age, at least here in Sweden when curtseying was common a younger woman curtseyed for a woman older than her, even if both had the same rank, I would guess it was the same in Norway.

 

[Artemisia]

In my country as well age is arguably more important than rank and reverence, respect towards older people are a norm.
In Matte-Marit's case, I agree it was more a mark of a respect towards a somewhat older lady (and a good friend, judging by their interaction) than a question of protocol. The same probably applies to Charlene as well; she is one of the youngest Consorts around so it's a bit hard for her to navigate.

 

[Spheno]

Charlene is HSH, Camilla has title HRH.
Princess Mary of Teck was HSH before marriage therefore her position in family was very low.

 

[Artemisia]

That has nothing to do with their ranking though, at least not for Heads of State and their spouses.
Charlene is the wife of Head of State, which means her status is equal to that of Prince Philip and above the Duchess of Cornwall.

Similarly. Prince Albert (a Serene Highness and Sovereign Prince), Grand Duke Henri (a Royal Highness and a Grand Duke), Queen Elizabeth (a Royal Majesty and a Queen Regnant) and Emperor Akihito (Imperial Highness and an Emperor) have equal ranking. Diplomatic Precedence among Heads of State is them is based on the number of years they hold the office, not their style.

Because of that, King Bhumibol of Thailand holds precedence over all Heads of State (elected and hereditary), followed by Elizabeth II. For that same reason, Prince Hans Adam II of Liechtenstein (a Serene Highness) actually holds precedence over King Harald V of Norway (a Majesty) because he ascended to the Throne 2 years earlier. Prince Albert himself ranks higher than, say, King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia because became Head of State just months before the King.

Mary of Teck was a different matter altogether; she was just a minor member of the British Royal Family and was a Serene Highness because her parents' marriage was morganatic.

 

[Charlotte_Aster]

isn't Hans Adam a HSH?

 

[Artemisia]

isn't Hans Adam a HSH?

Indeed. All current Sovereign Princes are Serene - and not Royal - Highness, including the Sovereign Prince of Liechtenstein.
I corrected the error in my previous post.

 

[vkrish]

All of you please see this video.
I am so impressed by how every Danish man and woman would bow and curtsey to not only the Queen, but her sons, D-I-Ls and Benedikte and also the guests.
Atleast they make a sincere effort to do so.

Prince of Wales and Duchess of Cornwall visit Denmark - Day 2, 3 (2012) - YouTube

Go directly to 8:20

It is a shame in UK, which boasts of tradition and history, hardly anyone, even women politicians or high society women, make an effort even to curtsey the Queen.

 

[Spheno]

Similarly. Prince Albert (a Serene Highness and Sovereign Prince), Grand Duke Henri (a Royal Highness and a Grand Duke), Queen Elizabeth (a Royal Majesty and a Queen Regnant) and Emperor Akihito (Imperial Highness and an Emperor) have equal ranking. Diplomatic Precedence among Heads of State is them is based on the number of years they hold the office, not their style.

If according to diplomatic protocol all Heads of State have equal ranking there is no curtseying in it at all. Curtseying is part of royal protocol.
According to royal protocol I believe HRH is always higher than HSH.
Now we have mix of two different protocols and their personal interpretation.

 

[Artemisia]

A Serene Highness can be higher than a Royal Highness under certain circumstances. For instance, Prince Albert is a Serene Highness but he most certainly ranks higher than, say, the Duke of Cambridge or the Prince of Wales. A Serene Highness who is not Head of State or his/her spouse is indeed usually lower in rank than a Royal Highness from a different country. However, they may be (and are) quite a few exceptions.

Excluding Majesties (Royal and Imperial), the ranking among Highnesses is usually like this:
- HIH (His/Her Imperial Highness)
- HRH (His/Her Royal Highness)
- HGDH (His/Her Grand Ducal Highness)
- HDSH (His/Her Ducal Serene Highness)
- HMSH (His/Her Most Serene Highness)
- HSH (His/Her Serene Highness)
- HIIH (His/Her Illustrious Highness)

There were also oddities like HEH (His Exalted Highness used by the Nyzam of Hyderabad), HSH (His/Her Sultanic Highness used by the son, daughters and daughters-in-law of Sultan Hussein Kamel of Egypt) and HMEH (His Most Eminent Highness).


As for bowing/curtseying between Heads of State, you are correct that it is not needed (and certainly not required) at all. Sometimes, elected Heads of State may opt to bow/curtsey to monarchs, especially female or a generation or two older than them, but it's entirely up to them. For instance, I seem to remember President Obama bowed to Emperor Akihito but it was not because of Japanese traditions and culture (the Emperor bowed back). I have also seen various US Presidents bowing to Queen Elizabeth as a mark of respect - although they most certainly didn't have to.

 

[sarahedwards2]

...President Obama bowed to Emperor Akihito but it was not because of Japanese traditions and culture (the Emperor bowed back). I have also seen various US Presidents bowing to Queen Elizabeth as a mark of respect - although they most certainly didn't have to.

It was too deep of a bow; men are supposed to bow from the neck, not the waist.

 

[An Ard Ri]

Members of the British Royal family greet King Juan Carlos and Queen Sofia of Spain in the mid 1980's.


Reverencia correcta entre reyes y príncipes - Reverencias Omnia Plena y Salutatis - YouTube

 

[Artemisia]

Thanks for the video, An Ard Ri. All those curtseys!

 

[An Ard Ri]

Thanks for the video, An Ard Ri. All those curtseys!

Your welcome,I know it was exhausting to watch,plus a bit nostalgic to see the late Princess Margaret and Princess Alice.

 

[sarahedwards2]

Good girl, Anne! Now that's what I'm talking about! I simply can't get enough of her curtsies!

 

[Baroness of Books]

Was that Princess Alice of Gloucester as well? She was the only lady to curtsey prior to greeting JC and it looked as if she started curtseying a tad too soon before his second kiss.

 

[An Ard Ri]

Was that Princess Alice of Gloucester as well? She was the only lady to curtsey prior to greeting JC and it looked as if she started curtseying a tad too soon before his second kiss.

Yes it was indeed the late Princess Alice,Duchess of Gloucester,I did notice that too!

 

[IloveCP]

Here is Victoria and Daniel bowing/curtseying at their wedding:

Swedish Royal Wedding Victoria & Daniel - part 1 (2010) - YouTube

Even King Carl XVI Gustav is bowing!

 

[Tiggersk8]

Your welcome,I know it was exhausting to watch,plus a bit nostalgic to see the late Princess Margaret and Princess Alice.

And Princess Alexandra's late husband as well.

Thanks for that video and I'm awe of Princess Alice being able to drop into that low of a curtsey at the age she was at that time. Pretty impressive.

 

[vkrish]

Members of the British Royal family greet King Juan Carlos and Queen Sofia of Spain in the mid 1980's.

Hey someone who know Spanish..can you guys tell me briefly what is the meaning of the title and what is the summary of comments made below..
I understand the title roughly means..correct way of respect to royals...
But I would like to kno wat is the correct thing..and what people have commented..not everything..just the brief idea/summary.
I am very curious about Spanish royal videos but to my dismay almost 99% of them are in Spanish, and it took me quiet a time even to figure out Rey and Reina

 

[Artemisia]

The first part of the title "Reverencia correcta entre reyes y príncipes"- means "Proper reverences* among Kings and Princes." **

The second part is not in Spanish, it's in Latin (well, apart from the "y", which means "and" in Spanish). "Reverencias Omnia Plena" means "Full Reverences" - as in full bowing or deep curtsey. "Salutatis" literally means "Greetings" and is used to describe more informal bows and not-to-deep curtseys.

* As in curtseys and bows
** More accurately, Kings and Queens (Reyes) and Princes and Princesses (Principes).

 

[An Ard Ri]

And Princess Alexandra's late husband as well.

Thanks for that video and I'm awe of Princess Alice being able to drop into that low of a curtsey at the age she was at that time. Pretty impressive.

They don't make them like Princess Alice anymore

 

[An Ard Ri]

The first part of the title "Reverencia correcta entre reyes y príncipes"- means "Proper reverences* among Kings and Princes." **

The second part is not in Spanish, it's in Latin (well, apart from the "y", which means "and" in Spanish). "Reverencias Omnia Plena" means "Full Reverences" - as in full bowing or deep curtsey. "Salutatis" literally means "Greetings" and is used to describe more informal bows and not-to-deep curtseys.


* As in curtseys and bows
** More accurately, Kings and Queens (Reyes) and Princes and Princesses (Principes).

Very well translated and I think Their Majesties were indeed shown 'Proper reverences' by members of the British Royal family in the video I posted.

 

[vkrish]

They don't make them like Princess Alice anymore

I always had a high regard for Alica and Marina. They were the bridge between Edwardian and New Elizabetha Ages. Now only Alexandra and Anne come nearest to them. Thats all. Then its all over.
BTW Look at those curtsies and look at Camilla's curtsies..

PS Thanks a lot both fr the vid and the translation