Bowing and Curtseying


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So the big question is who will bow to whom when the Duchess of Alba, Cayetana Fitz-James Stuart, meets the British Queen this week.
That's a myth, the Duchess of Alba has met Queen Elizabeth many times(she used to live in London, her father was the Spanish Ambassador) and she curtseys to the Queen. In fact, she curtseys to all the Queens, even the Bulgarian King's wife, Margarita, who technically is not a queen (she married a deposed tsar). Cayetana de Alba was the one who settled the matter in noble circles in Spain regarding this when she curtseyed to Margarita as if she were Queen. The rest followed suit.
 
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:previous:
Yes, unfortunately many links expire, agencies shift photo locations which make the links invalid, and members close their photo-hosting sites or delete the images.
 
There seems to be a missconception about Curtsy & Bowing.

There is a type of greeting, respect and beeing wellbred.

Any Gentleman (boy or man) may allways bow to any woman and/or kiss her hand; if she is married, if he plans to marry her, if he admires or respects her. But not in the street of course. So you will see a french President kissing the Hand for e.g. of CP Victoria / Q Silvia / Frau Merkel / my mother.

Any girl / unmarried women may curtsey to any elder woman, married woman, her grandmother and/or kiss her hand. A Girl / Young Women can also Curtsey to an respectec elder man. In our family we used to curtsey to my grandmother and kiss her hand and she gave us a kiss on the brow.

It is also considered polite to bow / curtsey to one another... to Women can curtsey to eachother - two men bow to one another.

The other type is bowing/curtseying to protocol - the spanish court-protokol to be known as the strictes. The Spanish protocol was also followed at the court of the Autrich- Habsburger.

So anyone who is concerned (members of the royal families, there employees etc.) should follow the protocol.
 
Since neither William nor Kate are the heirs to the throne would it be proper for them to curtesy/bow to Crown Prince Couples? Even on their wedding day? I know they will bow/curtesy to Kings and Queens......can't wait to see Kates curtesy to Her Majesty!
 
:previous: HRH only curtsy or bow to a monarch and in some cases, their consort. Not a fellow HRH. Certainly not by convention anyway.
 
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Actually I think you will find that many HRHs will bow or curtsey to CP e.g. Princess Anne and Princess Margaret both curtseyed to Diana after her marriage and Margaret even continued to do so after the divorce.

Personally I wouldn't cutsey to anyone as there is no reason to demean yourself to another human being but no doubt most here would do so.
 
Personal choice as opposed to convention, I think you'll find. Certainly if after the fact.

Continental Europe observes no such partiality by practice. If say the Crown Princess of Denmark decided to curtsy to the Prince of Wales, she would do so not because she is obliged to (as she is her husbands equal, who in turn is Charles') but because she personally thought it appropriate. In saying that, I don't believe Mary would do so as she knows her place.

Interesting reference that the Princess Margaret continued to curtsy to Diana, Princess of Wales. I've personally not heard that so would be interested for a source if anyone happens to know of one :)

And certainly, 'demeaning' is a matter of opinion, naturally.
 
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The Princess Royal always does what is correct which is why she curtsied to the Duchess of Cornwall at Ascot. So too, the Duchess of Alba.

Personal likes and dislikes are irrelevant. You are paying your respects to the person holding the higher rank just like in the military (where it is called compliments) and nobody seems to think that is demeaning.
 
I recall the Crown Princess of Norway gesturing what seemed to be a slight curtsy to the Duchess of Cornwall back in 2006, but even so, there was no reason for her to do so other than what she believed was appropriate. Technically, Mette-Marit is entirely Camilla's equal thus it is not required nor is it expected that she should curtsy.

Then again, MM also curtsied to President Obama (the office of) so it would appear she is rather fond of this charming observance.

The point I am making is that there is a liberty which can be taken by some, and occasionally is. The British system is a little different to the rest of Europe, need that be said.

I recently saw footage of the Infanta's Christina and Elena during the Dutch State Visit to Spain during the 80's or early 90's. Both curtsied to Queen Beatrix but neither curtsied to Prince Claus.

The Duchess of Alba being an aristocrat would naturally curtsy to Camilla.

just like in the military (where it is called compliments) and nobody seems to think that is demeaning.

Well made point.
 
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Mette Marit is a little eccentric about curtseying though. I think she also once curtseyed to Crown Princess Victoria.
 
But.... My question is William and Kate are not the same rank as CP couples so should they curtesy bow ? I've seen Anne curtesy to Camilla and I imagine it's the same thing bc they are not of same rank and Anne ususally does what is correct with protocol and such
 
Hi,

I would think that Anne being The Princess Royal and the daughter of The Monarch, would be equal to Camillaand would not have to curtsey to her.
But, I don't know what the fine points are on that situation; and if Anne does curtsey to Camilla, then she must know what she's doing!!!

Personally, I would bow only to The Queen and Prince Philip, and have in Calgary in 2005; but not to the rest...

Larry
 
Has Princess Anne ever curtseyed to a foreign heir e.g Haakon, Victoria, Frederik?
 
Anne has curtseyed to both of Charles' wives simply because they are/were Charles' wife and as such senior to her.
 
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Mette Marit is a little eccentric about curtseying though. I think she also once curtseyed to Crown Princess Victoria.


Of course Victoria is the Crown Princess in her own right whereas Metter Marit is only a Crown Princess by marriage.
 
MM seems very liberal in the way she curtsies to people who are theoretically her equals.
i wish letizia would curtsy lower. the curtsy to sheikha mozah does seem a bit poor, although a video would be a bit more telling. i remember how she used to curtsy low and deep during her first years...
 
carlota said:
MM seems very liberal in the way she curtsies to people who are theoretically her equals.
i wish letizia would curtsy lower. the curtsy to sheikha mozah does seem a bit poor, although a video would be a bit more telling. i remember how she used to curtsy low and deep during her first years...

I though Letitia was one the 'lowest curtsiers'. But I haven't seen many recent pictures.
 
This might be off topic, but what would happen if someone like me, who is wheelchair bound, were to meet a royal? Would I be expected to a small bow instead of a curtsey? Does anyone know?
 
This might be off topic, but what would happen if someone like me, who is wheelchair bound, were to meet a royal? Would I be expected to a small bow instead of a curtsey? Does anyone know?
This actually happened recently: Ana Maria Mutate received the Cervantes Award and she greeted rather warmly by the Spanish RF. As a matter of fact, they bowed to her (in a manner) :flowers:
Spanish Royals Host Lunch in Ocassion of the '2011 Cervantes Award' - Pictures - Zimbio
 
I though Letitia was one the 'lowest curtsiers'. But I haven't seen many recent pictures.

The Spanish Royals(including Letizia) make old-fashioned, very low curtseys but Infanta Cristina and the Princess' curtsey to the Sheika was very small(on the gala dinner the Princess didn't curtsey to Mozah), probably because the Sheika Mozah is HH. (Infanta Elena and Cristina didn't curtsey to HRH Prince Claus of the Netherlands)
 
This actually happened recently: Ana Maria Mutate received the Cervantes Award and she greeted rather warmly by the Spanish RF. As a matter of fact, they bowed to her (in a manner) :flowers:
Spanish Royals Host Lunch in Ocassion of the '2011 Cervantes Award' - Pictures - Zimbio

While not very informed regarding the rules of it, I'm impressed with the Spanish royals. The appropriate thing to do when meeting a person in a wheelchair is to lean down so that you can greet them at eye level. How nice to see them observe this protocol, especially since they were greeting Ana Maria Mutate as the winner of the award they were there to celebrate. Very nice.
 
I think curtseying and bowing is totally outmoded and unnecessary.

Military salutes are another matter.
 
This might be off topic, but what would happen if someone like me, who is wheelchair bound, were to meet a royal? Would I be expected to a small bow instead of a curtsey? Does anyone know?


A little bow - or whatever you can manage would be fine; although I can really only speak for the BRF,[ I am sure all other Royal Families and Crowned heads are exactly the same,] all members are very well practised in dealing with disabled people and indeed any members of the public who meet them. If you can't even manage a little bow [broken neck and in hospital for example] any little gesture of respect you are able to make would be fine - even 'Good Morning Your Majesty' after you have been introduced / presented if that is physically all you are able to manage.

As a side issue, bowing and curtesying is become slightly less common. Traditionally, all subjects [i.e. British, Australian, Canadian etc] who met members of the BRF were required to bow /curtsey and by convention if you came from a country where there was a Crowned Head [Spain, Monaco etc] it was always regarded as appropriate to extend to the BRF the same courtesy you would extend to your own Monarch etc. Americans of course were not duty bound to bow etc, because their appropriate greeting is to refer to their head of State as 'Mr President' - in other words, letting your tongue do the work of your 'neck or your knee'. Nancy Reagan however did a small bow of acknowlegement back in 1981 when she met the BRF at the Wedding of Charles and Diana.

That's the 'traditional' position. Nowadays, the trend is that if you meet most members of the BRF, it is not compulsory to bow/ curtsey anyway. At ANY occasion when a member of the BRF is present Royal Aides will brief you beforehand and tell you whether to curtsey etc and how to address the person concerned: Ma'am, Sir etc. the general rule seems to be that if you are individually presented to the Queen/ Prince Phillip or some of the senior [in age] Royals, a bow or curtsey will be required. However, if the Queen stops during a walkabout to talk to you, then it is NOT necessary to bow/ curtsey. Similarly, if the Queen and Prince Philip are [say] making a visit to a factory or children's nursery and 'drop by' the factory floor, nursery etc where people are actively working / teaching etc] it is not necessary to bow or curtesy. Again you will be guided by a Royal Aide as to what is appropriate behaviour.

As a rule, Prince Edward and particularly the Princess Royal tend not to require a bow/ curtsey and you will be informed of this - part of the reason is that the Princess Royal apparently dislikes 'all forms of fuss' and indeed many of her engagements have a kind of 'business-like feel' to them - e.g when she chairs charity meetings or is present at a British Olympic Association meeting. Princes William and Harry seem to take this informal approach. Princess Michael of Kent however is according to press reports in the newspapers VERY keen on receiving a bow/ curtsey and was also the subject of quite a stinging article in the Times some years ago when she apparently ordered an interior decorator to come down off a ladder and curtesy to her. [Which the Times' etiquette expert thought was wrong.] [Incidentally, Princess Michael is the only Royal I have known who specifies what sort of flowers [Orchids for choice!] that she requires to be in her bouquet].

There used to be a strict rule that all players on the Centre Court at Wimbledon [of all Nationalities, including those who were citizens of a country without a monarchy/crowned head etc] all had to perform a quick bow/curtsey to the representative Royal in the Royal Box [usually the Duke of Kent and the Duchess as well as in the past Princess Diana etc]. However, the Duke of Kent let it be known last year [or was it the year before? - time flies so fast!] that it was NO LONGER necessary to bow/ curtsey. Oddly enough, the London papers reported that many players were a bit upset about this abolition, as they regarded it as 'all part of Wimbledon's charm'!

I did however notice that when Camilla went to Hampton Court Flower show last year, those ladies presented to her all curtseyed.

If you are lucky enough to be invited to stay at Windsor / Sandringham etc, the rules change slightly - guests are required to curtesy/ bow to the Queen, Prince Philip, Senior Royals etc BUT the rule is that you only have to do so ONCE each day - there is apparently a desire amongst guests to seek out the appropirate royals as soon as possible each day in order to 'get the curtsey over with'. After breakfast is the best time - the Royal Family DO NOT join their guests at breakfast as a general rule - they 'breakfast in their rooms'..

A couple of other points- unless at a very important formal occasion, women only have to execute a quick 'bob' as a curtsey; the Formal Court Curtsey died out years ago [bascially, you sink low, having positioned your knee in a special way to prevent the 'dreaded wobble]. Royal Brides tend to perform a type of low curtsey just after they marry when they curtsey to the Queen for the first time. [as did Catherine on Friday].

Another point - where the BRF is concerned, men only have to perform what is known as the 'Coburg' bow - from the neck only! Only head waiters [at appropriately grand restaurants presumably!] are reputedly required to bow from the waist!

One final point - I was taught to do a 'Court Curtsey' some years ago - why, I do not know, as Presentation at Court [where it would have been required] had died out years previously. Despite knowing how to do so, I have NEVER been required to perform a Court Curtsey,[ as I did not plan to become one of the Queen's daughters-in-law!!] although I have had the opportunity of doing 'a little bob' many times.

Hope this helps,

Alex

PS - Hope you saw the Queen when she came to Cambridge the other day Bluestocking!
 
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I curtseying and bowing is totally outmoded and unnecessary.

Military salutes are another matter.
N0! They are exactly the same thing, an historical custom for which nothing better has eventuated.

In the British and Commonwealth forces one salutes "The Queen's/King's Commission" not the individual officer.
 
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