Bowing and Curtseying

[Laurentienne]

It has been a while since this post was posted back in April, but i know who the woman is.


TheMajesty wrote: (post #454, page 23 in this thread - long ago, I know!! )

Well, it seems "bow and curtsey" can be seen also as a way to express ones respect.
I just saw a video of the opening of the new Opera in Oslo and a woman (no idea who she was... I guess a representative of the Opera) curtseyed to chancellor Merkel.

The woman is Ellen Horn. Shee was a part of the Norwegian government in 2000-2001, as a minister of culture.
From 2005 she is the chief of Riksteateret. (Theatre). So she had a natural place in the ceremony welcoming guests to the new operahouse in Oslo. But cortseying Merckel seemed weird to me too!

[giov]

Originally Posted by Nitefeatherz

And yet if someone who walks into the building a) isn't a Christian but visiting the building or b) isn't familiar with the scripture/has different Christian beliefs/etc it may not be rude. You wouldn't ask a Sikh man wearing a turban to remove it- it is probably part of their cultural and religious beliefs NOT to remove it. It's rude to YOU but that is YOUR belief and the beliefs of YOUR faith- that's the key with humanity everyone is entitled to an opinion. I've been in Church many, many times and few of the women I have run into EVER had their heads covered. Many men will remove their hats out of respect- but this is less religious and more everyday respect than religious respect, but still.

So, do you mean that people can enter a Mosque without taking their shoes off?
I don't think they are allowed.
There should be mutual respect, IMO!

[Royal historian]

i dont think people should bow to commoners who become royals because there were just like us before there marry in to the monarchy

[jinigirl]

Originally Posted by Royal historian

i dont think people should bow to commoners who become royals because there were just like us before there marry in to the monarchy

I thnk you don't bow/curtsey to the person, but to the position

[COUNTESS]

It is an antiquated and subservient greeting. Those who wish to partake, certainly, can. Those who find it out of date, should thus observe there conscience. The word commoner and royal is a cute way of saying they are better. They are not. That should have also gone out of date. Their ancestors had the biggest swords. Some were brave and good, other were ruthless and evil. But for good or evil, they set themselves and their future relations up in a cushy spot, thus eliminating any real measurement for the job. As for the head covering, in Jewish Temples men must also cover their heads. At least in the Orthodox and Conservative versions. The Reform do not. The Bible says nothing about men going without covering their heads and women must. That is a manmade relgious dictum. Some honor others religious dictums and some don't.

[Queen Angelique]

I thnk you don't bow/curtsey to the person, but to the position[/quote]

Indeed. It is a formality only to do with tradition and custom now, rather than an assumed inherent superiority which was the basis of these forms of protocol in times past. Originally, in antiquity, Royalty lived devout lives and were expected and thought to be the true leaders/examples on account of their nobility, wisdom, inner refinement and purity, as well as their courage.

Over time, the institution of "Royalty" has undergone many changes, and now it has, regrettably, become a form of celebrity status only. Entertainment is its main attribute now.

[Queen Angelique]

Quote:
Their ancestors had the biggest swords. Some were brave and good, other were ruthless and evil. But for good or evil, they set themselves and their future relations up in a cushy spot, thus eliminating any real measurement for the job.

Yes, this is what happened as "Royalty" degenerated over time. And indeed, there was no measurement for the job. The ruthless and the wicked often won in claiming the Throne! Whereas in antiquity the succession was determined not merely through being related, but through processes somewhat similar to the finding of the new Dalai Lama, although baby's were not an option.

[Queen Angelique]

Quote;
As for the head covering, in Jewish Temples men must also cover their heads. At least in the Orthodox and Conservative versions. The Reform do not. The Bible says nothing about men going without covering their heads and women must. That is a manmade relgious dictum.

Yes, well put. This is another example of our society having devolved into a far too Patriarchal model.
It has been forgotten that a great deal of Royalty from the past, especially in Antiquity, were Females.

[Her_Majesty]

You can see Mary and Marie curtseying to MII here: Ekstra Bladet - To smukke prinsesser åbnede Folketinget

[Duchess Ravenna]

Love this thread! As a little girl in convent school, I was certainly taught to curtsey, and boys were taught to bow. But that was a long time ago...

As an American, in America, I would not curtsey to a foreign royal. But, as I do with anyone I'm introduced to, I would give a small ceremonious nod of greeting as I shake hands. It's only polite.

I once was presented to a Royal prince in Scotland, and did indeed give him a quick bob as we shook hands. We were in his homeland, after all, and besides it felt cool!

[MARG]

Originally Posted by Duchess Ravenna

Love this thread! . . . . . I once was presented to a Royal prince in Scotland, and did indeed give him a quick bob as we shook hands. We were in his homeland, after all, and besides it felt cool!

I too love this thread. You have make two really great points here.

First, when in Rome do as the Romans do. and

Second, It felt good.

Isn't it great that in this brave new world, with all it's egalitarian philosophising, not to mention it's technoligical whistles and bells, a simple act of grace and plain, old-fashioned good manners can make you feel cool.

That is exactly that! Cool!

[Madame Royale]

Interesting point you too have made, MARG...

Who is it that feels more enchanted I wonder. Those who execute this ancient and graceful observance, or the personage receiving such reverence.

It's been my experience that those who have willingly complied with such 'tradition', have felt they've been a part of something 'remarkable'. A cursty or bow of the neck, being themselves, a ceremonial associated with monarchy and being able to partake in it has brought them a little pleasure for a gesture so simple.

[Jo of Palatine]

Originally Posted by Her_Majesty

You can see Mary and Marie curtseying to MII here: Ekstra Bladet - To smukke prinsesser åbnede Folketinget

A nice video, thank you very much for the link.

If this had been about Prince william and Catherine Middleton, a lot of people would now claim to have seen proof that there is no love between them when you see how Frederick and Mary behave: Frederick does not wait for Mary so they can walk up the steps together. Mary had to run past him.

But I liked how Joachim waited for Marie and how she took his offered arm before they went up the steps. Nice to see how the daughters-in-law first were hugged by their mother-in-law but then dropped a deep curtsey for their souverain. Nicely conducted, very dignified.

[Carminha Stalker]

IMO to curtsey is very much a matter of choice.
In my country, Brasil, especially in the northern part, children would kiss their parents, and grandparents hands and ask for their blessing. It´s a custom that is still maintained in some places.
When I met members of the Brazilian Imperial family, I didn´t find at all difficult or strange to curtsey to them. Since, from childhood and being a Catholic, I had been used to show respect not only to my family´s elders, but also to bishops, archbishops, so when in front of Dom Luis de Orleans, it was the most natural thing to do.

[Madame Royale]

Watching the above link, I must say I found it quite rude of Princess Marie to not even acknowledge the crowd as she left the car. Poor form!

[Jo of Palatine]

Originally Posted by Madame Royale

Watching the above link, I must say I found it quite rude of Princess Marie to not even acknowledge the crowd as she left the car. Poor form!

Oh, but you could see from the way she so definately nodded when being bowed to that she is still such a learner. While Mary has learned how to cope with being bowed and curtseyed to quite beautifully (other than her husband, who spared no glance to her when she wanted to say something to some gentleman who had greeted her and thus stayed behind....). The queen of course was a lecture in response but I'm convinced Marie will be well guided by Mary and the queen herself, so in future will behave accordingly and greet the gathered crowd in a most recommendable way.

[Menarue]

Originally Posted by Madame Royale

Watching the above link, I must say I found it quite rude of Princess Marie to not even acknowledge the crowd as she left the car. Poor form!

Let us put it this way. Princess Mary has impeccable manners.

[MARG]

Originally Posted by Menarue

Let us put it this way. Princess Mary has impeccable manners.

Hopefully when Marie has been married the same amount of time she too will have impeccable manners, or is it just the ability to "make like a duck"!

[magnik]

Marie's curtsey was too deep. I think that she need some time to learn and remamber all rules. Don't remamber that she start her princess's lessons. Beside it was her first time.

About manners if you don't have them you should learn them....

[Menarue]

Originally Posted by MARG

Hopefully when Marie has been married the same amount of time she too will have impeccable manners, or is it just the ability to "make like a duck"!

No, I really think that Mary has impeccable manners, whether they are royal or not I just don´t know, but they are not the kind of manners that she suddenly had to learn because she is a princess. She was probably just taught them from an early age and learnt them well. Having to curtsey was an art that had to be acquired but she seems to be naturally courteous.