Bowing and Curtseying

[Philippe Egalite']

I have drawn two interesting conclusions from perusing these pages.
1. Crown Princess Haakon (the correct title of Mette-Marie) keeps breaking protocol intentionally in order to endear herself to, and be accepted by, royalty, given her obscure, by royal standards, past [and that's quite smart on her part, although it is inappropriate for the wife of the Heir to the Throne of Norway]
and
2. Madame Chirac has also been bowing to everybody, also violating protocol. In Mrs Chirac's case the reason was endearment to a world she would like to be part of.

[JessRulz]

Originally Posted by Philippe Egalite'

...1. Crown Princess Haakon (the correct title of Mette-Marie) keeps breaking protocol intentionally in order to endear herself with, and be accepted by, royalty, given her obscure, by royal standards, past [and that's quite smart on her part, altough it inappropriate for the wife of the Heir to the Throne of Norway]...

Can you please give some examples of this breaking of protocol, as they only time I have seen Mette-Marit break protocol in way of curtseying was when she curtseyed to the Duchess of Cornwall (her equal in terms of rank) in November 2005

[leonardinha]

Well, in Italy and in Austria titles are forbidden as well, but it is not a faux pas to curtsey/bow to royalty.

Originally Posted by branchg

Generally, it is considered a faux pas for Americans to bow or curtsey to royalty because the Constitution forbids all titles of nobility.

[norwegianne]

Originally Posted by Philippe Egalite'

I have drawn two interesting conclusions from perusing these pages.
1. Crown Princess Haakon (the correct title of Mette-Marie)
and

The correct title of Mette-Marit is Her Royal Highness Crown Princess Mette-Marit of Norway. This was decided by the King, and sent out in a press release on the day of the wedding.

Norway does not operate with the wives taking their husband's full name as theirs - ie. Queen Sonja was always Her Royal Highness Crown Princess Sonja before her husband's ascension and not Crown Princess Harald.

[Philippe Egalite']

Originally Posted by norwegianne

The correct title of Mette-Marit is Her Royal Highness Crown Princess Mette-Marit of Norway. This was decided by the King, and sent out in a press release on the day of the wedding.

Norway does not operate with the wives taking their husband's full name as theirs - ie. Queen Sonja was always Her Royal Highness Crown Princess Sonja before her husband's ascension and not Crown Princess Harald.

I will respectfully dissent and fully substantiate my dissension.
What you are talking about is the style accorded to Mette-Marit, not her title that I was referring to.
There is a distinction between style (form of referring to royals) and legal title, which carries constitutional or statutory backing. And here is an excellent example of the difference between the two.

In Great Britain, Prince Edward decided that his first child be styled The Lady Louise Wndsor. However, her legal (statutory) title is HRH The Princess Louise of Wessex. So, the style and legal title of a royal personage are distinct (issues) and may differ (in content).

It should be noted that when the law permits, a monarch may, through letters patent, grant legal rank and title, following agreement with the government. This is the case in Great Britain, where King George VI, for example, in 1947, elevated Philip Mountbatten to His Royal Higness Philip, Duke of Edinburgh, and in 1957, The Queen, elevated him further to His Royal Higness The Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh. She even added the capitalised definite article "The", a usage normally restricted to children of the Monarch. All these are not just styles, they are fully legal titles.

Now, let return to Norway.
The latest Constitution of Norway does not provide for titles other than those of:
1. The monarch
2. The Heir to the Throne, who from 1990 onward will be determined by absolute primogeniture, and
3. Lineal (only) Princes or princesses, that is, of the blood royal, who are in the line of succession.
There is no mention whatsoever about royal consorts (male or female).

Moreover, Article 23 dictates:
"The King may bestow orders upon whomever he pleases as a reward for distinguished services, and such orders must be publicly announced, but no rank or title other than that attached to any office............... No personal, or mixed, hereditary privileges may henceforth be granted to anyone"
and Article 36 dictates:
"The King shall make provisions concerning titles for those who are entitled to succeed to the Crown."

These articles make it crystal-clear that the King may bestow rank or title only upon those entitled to succeed to the Throne. Thus, he may bestow upon Prince Haakon the title of, say, Duke of Nidaros, or upon his grand daughter the title of, say, Duchess of Nordland, but that is it. However, King Harald is not prohibited from conferring style to consorts of royal personages as long as styles are not titles or rank and, therefore, statutorily meaningless. Therefore, what you quote is Mette-Marit's style, not rank or title.

My earlier indication that her title is Crown Princess Haakon was based on the following rationale:
Whenever there is no provision in a constitution for titles or rank for consorts of dynasts, convention has it that, by courtesy, these consorts are invested with titular ceremonial privileges deriving strictly from the statutory position of their spouse. A good precedent is that of Greece, which, when a Kingdom, had a constitution similar to that of Norway in regard to the royal family. All consorts to princes or crown princes, even when royal in their own right, had no statutory rank or title and, as such, were honorifically refrerred to by their husbands' names.
For example, while the wife of Crown Prince (Diadoch) Paul, Frederika of Hanover was referred to as HRH Princess Diadoch, prince Philip's mother, Alice of Battenberg, as HRH Princess Andrew of Greece, and Grand Duchess Elena Vladimirovna as HRH Princess Nicholas of Greece and, even though royal suo jure, these personages had no statutory rank or title whatsoever.
Therefore, while Mette-Marit carries the style the King chose for her, that is, HRH Crown Princess Mette-Marit, technically she is HRH Crown Princess Haakon, because her status stems solely from her husband's dignity.

[Philippe Egalite']

Originally Posted by Lunalu

This is so sweet !

A great old lady, but still not forgetting what she is supposed to do !

HRH Princess Benedikte is certainly a grand lady and certainly not old. Nowadays, in their early 60's, people are starting new careers!

[auntie]

I read that Wallis Duchess of Windsor refused to curtsey to QEII, on the only occasion she was at a state event in the UK, the unveiling of Queen Mary's statue. Her husband the duke bowed every time, even when he was very sick. Is there other stories of not wanting to bow/curtsey? Another question, does a born royal have to bow, curtsey to a married into royal if he/she is of higher presedence? Ie does princess Benedickte have to curtsey to CP Mary? or even QSonja?

[bbb]

http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums...ying-4676.html

this thread might have some answers, i've never heard about wallis refusing to bow, seems like i've seen a photo of her in black at the dukes funeral curtseying, perhaps one of our good experts can explain further. i don't know much about the rules of protcol, i know as an American it is up to me whether i wish to or not but out of respect i'm sure i would. the whole thing as near as i can understand it goes by rank, but i've seen queen curtsey to other queens and vice versa so i assume they all just know the rules and go with it (or has someone to tell them) if the person is a higher rank, queen, CP, Princess, etc you bow to them. at the state dinner benedickte was further down the table than the CP couple so i assume they rank higher than her, but as a sister of the queen i'm not sure she curtseys to her nephews but she would to Queen Sonja. corrrect me if i'm i'll mixed up i'm very curious to auntie's question.

[scooter]

I shall look it up just to double check, but IIRC, she conspicuously curtsey'd to QEII, but equally conspicuously refused to do so for QEQM. Given the animosity and bad blood, this would not surprise me. QEQM was adamant that 'the divorcee' would NEVER be accorded HRH, even though prescedent was on Wallis' side.

[COUNTESS]

Even out of respect, I cannot understand why any American would curtsey. A handsake or a nod of the head is one thing. But I wouldn't curtsey to any member of my government, why would I do that elsewhere. It is a sign of submission, it is not a sign of courtsey. It is sold that way now. Sorry.

[Empress]

It is out of respect for the history of the institution, and the monarch, or princely person embodies that history..

I would curtsey, but I am a traditionalist. I suppose it depends on your defintiion of what is courtesy and what isn't. I find it respectful to curtsey and show respect for the insitution, and the fact that a particular monarch, especially Betatrix or Elizabeth, have given up a life that they might have preferred to live, in order to lead one for the sake of duty.

Its a question of personal choice I suppose, and I choose to curtsey out of respect for the history of it, and in some cases because I admire the person.

EDIT: A particular government can not trace its geneaology back to previous rulers who actually did govern the coutnry, whereas most monarchs did. It is also a question of tradition. No American/French/Russian/German Chancellor, president or whatever has ever been curtseyed to, while some men might very well have bowed. At the same time, George Bush did bow, (a very old courtly gentlemanly gesture steeped in history) and Laura Bush did bob a very small curtsey on meeting QEII if reports are to be believed, as did Bill Clinton. So, I suppose if other heads of state see fit to bow or curtsey, I don't see why it should be seen as a gesture of submission. But it's all in the eyes of the beholder I suppose. Perhaps I don't feel it a submissive gesture as I do not feel that any one person is a better person than another.

And if it is sold that way now- well times change and tradition evolves a bit, and if people prefer to see it that way, then what is wrong with that?

[Elspeth]

Originally Posted by auntie

I read that Wallis Duchess of Windsor refused to curtsey to QEII, on the only occasion she was at a state event in the UK, the unveiling of Queen Mary's statue. Her husband the duke bowed every time, even when he was very sick. Is there other stories of not wanting to bow/curtsey? Another question, does a born royal have to bow, curtsey to a married into royal if he/she is of higher presedence? Ie does princess Benedickte have to curtsey to CP Mary? or even QSonja?

I think the Duchess of Windsor did curtsey, or at least bow, to the Queen; she just refused to do so to the Queen Mother. Given the acrimonious history between the two of them, that refusal is understandable.

[auntie]

There is definitely a picture of the Duke+Duchess of Windsor and the Duke and Glouctesor, the Queens mum all by the unveiling of Queen Mary's memorial, and Wallis conspiciously not curtsying, it was the first time she came to the UK on a official visit.

[Duke of Marmalade]

Cherie Blair I recall she refused to curtsey or did it in an embarrassing way at several occasions, and not only in the movie she's famous for opponent stuff like that. I think QE II stands above such behaviour, as it never reflects on herself but on the person who does not know or does not want to know the protocol

People who don't respect the monarchy should stay away - refusing to bow or curtsey does not ridicule or embarrass the monarch but always the person and his or her purposes.

[bbb]

as a texan i would never curtsey as a gesture of submission, in my bob (could never get the correct cutsey down ;0 ) it would be a form of respect for the history and person. for instance i would never bow to albert but i would to caroline.

[Regina]

Well I won't have much chances to curtsey because I don't have monarchy in my country. Even if I had I am not seeing myself curtseying to Dom Duarte and his wife.
If I met Queen Beatrix or Queen Elizabeth I wouldn't resist to curtsey to them because I admire these Queens soo much, they are such great examples! I would curtsey to express my admiration and respect to those specific two great Royal Ladies.
I would also curtsey to Princess Grace but never to her son, Prince Albert or to Princess Stephanie.

If a British subject was in presence of the Queen and refused to bow I think the Queen wouldn't care. She and everyone else wouldn't even comment on it but I guess he would certainly be ostracized by societal circles. This subject would basically be committing social death (except with anti-monarchy circles). I don't know how is it on other Royal Families.

[msleiman]

I think that I would also curtsey only to a few people. Queen Elizabeth is one of them, I know that would not have to but I would.

[Madame Royale]

To each and every reigning sovereign and their consort, I would curtsy without a moments hesitation to do so.

[RubyPrincess168]

The only royal that I would object to curtseying is the Duchess of Cornwall, possibly Prince Albert of Monaco too. Does one have to bow/curtsey to HSHs though (as opposedto HRHs)?

[Fashionista100]

Yes, you have to bow or curtsey to them. HSH is one step below HRH. Actually Princess Caroline had her status upgraded slightly where she married her third husband. He was an HRH and she was an HSH. Upon her marriage she became an HRH too.