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  #3521  
Old 12-19-2022, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by An Ard Ri View Post
Queen Elizabeth was a particular case. Many royals curtseys to her by simple respect even if they didn't have to. I think it was the case for Princess Charlene.
Same for many wife's of French Présidents. They didn't have to .. but they did. Remember Carla Bruni and not only her.
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  #3522  
Old 12-19-2022, 06:58 PM
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Originally Posted by An Ard Ri View Post

Technically, everyone should curtsy/bow to the Emperor of Japan as he is an Imperial Majesty and not just a Majesty, but this is not observed in practice. As for QEII, I don't know why Charlene curtsied to her, but then again, I don't know why Charlene doesn't follow a lot of the royal protocol at the international events she attends either.
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  #3523  
Old 01-28-2023, 05:59 AM
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Does anyone have a clue about the rule of bowing or curtsey in front of the cuffin of a deceased Majesty / Ruler.
Watching the funeral of HLM King Konstantine of Greece, all his family bowed or Curtsied, but Queen Margrete no. CP Frederik and Joakim, yes.
If I'm not wrong I remember the funeral of late Prince Rainier, when the cuffin passed the Presidents and Kings bowed

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  #3524  
Old 01-28-2023, 06:11 AM
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Originally Posted by fandesacs2003 View Post
Does anyone have a clue about the rule of bowing or curtsey in front of the cuffin of a deceased Majesty / Ruler.
Watching the funeral of HLM King Konstantine of Greece, all his family bowed or Curtsied, but Queen Margrete no. CP Frederik and Joakim, yes.
If I'm not wrong I remember the funeral of late Prince Rainier, when the cuffin passed the Presidents and Kings bowed

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There is no any "rule" as a bow or a révérence are always optional and never an obligation.

Like saying "Your Majesty" is always optional as "Sir" or "Madame" is equally perfectly correct.
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  #3525  
Old 01-28-2023, 07:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
There is no any "rule" as a bow or a révérence are always optional and never an obligation.

Like saying "Your Majesty" is always optional as "Sir" or "Madame" is equally perfectly correct.
Thanks a lot. But royals follow a very precise etiquette related to the bows and curtseys.
Just that this etiquette is unclear for me, as far as paying respect to a deceased, it's concerned.

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  #3526  
Old 01-28-2023, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by kimebear View Post
Technically, everyone should curtsy/bow to the Emperor of Japan as he is an Imperial Majesty and not just a Majesty, but this is not observed in practice. As for QEII, I don't know why Charlene curtsied to her, but then again, I don't know why Charlene doesn't follow a lot of the royal protocol at the international events she attends either.
But the Tenno of Japan is not an emperor in the western sense. It is a translation of a unique title that has no equivalent in the west. Besides, a king of France was not lower in status than an emperor of the French. A king of Egypt was not lower in status than the emperors of Ethiopia or Iran.

Having “imperial” in a style does not denote some sort of seniority. In certain jurisdictions like the HRE (& its successor states) it did but not everywhere. Indeed in India the idea of empire was turned on its head when the British kingdom controlled as a colony the empire of India. Hence king-emperor & not emperor-king.
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  #3527  
Old 01-28-2023, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by fandesacs2003 View Post
Does anyone have a clue about the rule of bowing or curtsey in front of the cuffin of a deceased Majesty / Ruler.
Watching the funeral of HLM King Konstantine of Greece, all his family bowed or Curtsied, but Queen Margrete no. CP Frederik and Joakim, yes.
If I'm not wrong I remember the funeral of late Prince Rainier, when the cuffin passed the Presidents and Kings bowed

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Queen Margrethe most likely didn't curtsy because of the problems with her hips and knees. She curtsied for her husband, her mother and her father. In general curtseying or bowing infront of the coffin is a Scandinavian tradition that's still done by older traditionalists like me, but seems to be disappearing among most other people.
I was a bit surprised by the constant curtseying during the funeral services of Queen Elizabeth, but I guess the rule about curtseying the first time you meet a monarch during the day aren't observed during a funeral.
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  #3528  
Old 01-28-2023, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by fandesacs2003 View Post
Thanks a lot. But royals follow a very precise etiquette related to the bows and curtseys.
Just that this etiquette is unclear for me, as far as paying respect to a deceased, it's concerned.

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I have the idea that the royals themselves do not care that much about it. When you see a paasage then the one guest makes a bow, the other guest only gives a handshake.

One can even see when politicians are received that the one (usually of a more conservative signature) goes through the knees or makes a bow, the other (usually of a more progesssive signature) keeps it with a handshake.

Both are perfectly okay anyway.
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  #3529  
Old 01-28-2023, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Durham View Post
Having “imperial” in a style does not denote some sort of seniority. In certain jurisdictions like the HRE (& its successor states) it did but not everywhere. Indeed in India the idea of empire was turned on its head when the British kingdom controlled as a colony the empire of India. Hence king-emperor & not emperor-king.

Like you pointed out, it depends on the situation.

During the days of actual empires, an emperor ruled over other lands that may have had kings at the helm, which is why technically emperor is the superior title. There are no empires like that anymore, so the situation no longer applies, but imperial can still take precedence over royal in titles and precedence. Such as Princess Astrid of Belgium, who was born into a reigning royal family but married an Archduke from a deposed imperial family and is officially titled Her Imperial and Royal Highness, not Her Royal and Imperial Highness.

Then you have cases like the King of Bhutan bowing to Emperor Naruhito at his enthronement. A sign of respect from one monarch to the other, but obviously a personal choice as opposed to a rule.
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  #3530  
Old 01-28-2023, 10:04 AM
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You have to factor in religion too. The Emperor of Japan is also considered a religious figure in the Japanese religion, descending from the a Sun Goddess in Shinto Religion


Unfortunately, anything for the Western cultures that is not biblically based is typecasted as 'tribal religions' or mythology, which is a disrespectful view of other non-Christian cultures. In the USA we could have reverence for the Pope or for protestant religious leaders even when it's just a corner local church that was just formed a while ago by a TV preacher, but barely any respect for other cultures religions and customs.

I assume when the King of Butan shows respect to the Emperor of Japan is not just based on a political title but he takes into account the divinity of the Emperor too
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  #3531  
Old 01-28-2023, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by kimebear View Post

During the days of actual empires, an emperor ruled over other lands that may have had kings at the helm, which is why technically emperor is the superior title. There are no empires like that anymore, so the situation no longer applies, but imperial can still take precedence over royal in titles and precedence. Such as Princess Astrid of Belgium, who was born into a reigning royal family but married an Archduke from a deposed imperial family and is officially titled Her Imperial and Royal Highness, not Her Royal and Imperial Highness.
No, both Princess Astrid of Belgium and her husband Prince Lorenz of Belgium are officially titled as Royal Highness. They do not style themselves as Imperial anywhere.

I will post one court agenda entry as an example, but that is the case in all official and unofficial communications of the royal court and of the state authorities, in official and private correspondence, in commercial registers and identity documents.

Princess Astrid and her children never been styled as "Imperial" at any time after 1991, when the Belgian monarchy adopted gender-equal primogeniture.
https://www.monarchie.be/fr/agenda/fiancailles

Leurs Altesses Royales la Princesse Astrid et le Prince Lorenz ont la grande joie d’annoncer les fiançailles de Son Altesse Royale la Princesse Maria Laura avec Monsieur William Isvy. Le mariage aura lieu au second semestre 2022.
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  #3532  
Old 01-28-2023, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by kimebear View Post
Like you pointed out, it depends on the situation.

During the days of actual empires, an emperor ruled over other lands that may have had kings at the helm, which is why technically emperor is the superior title. There are no empires like that anymore, so the situation no longer applies, but imperial can still take precedence over royal in titles and precedence. Such as Princess Astrid of Belgium, who was born into a reigning royal family but married an Archduke from a deposed imperial family and is officially titled Her Imperial and Royal Highness, not Her Royal and Imperial Highness.

Then you have cases like the King of Bhutan bowing to Emperor Naruhito at his enthronement. A sign of respect from one monarch to the other, but obviously a personal choice as opposed to a rule.
An interesting debate. The Duchess of Edinburgh was styled HR&IH in the Uk but HI&RH as Duchess of Coburg. Certainly no imperial highness has ever been given precedence over a royal one in the uk but others courts act differently. And anyway imperial/emperors sounds very foreign to British ears hence why George iii wisely rejected the title Emperor of the British Isles in 1801. He understood rightly that the ancient title of king was a far more prestigious one than aping the upstart Bonaparte & becoming an emperor.

Bowing is the normal form of greeting in Japan as far as I understand. The emperor bows himself doesn't he?

Asian customs & attitudes are very different from those in the west of course. I would be very surprised however if any Asian king (Thai, Saudi) believed that they were outranked by the Japanese emperor.
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  #3533  
Old 01-28-2023, 07:34 PM
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Belgium has evidently given precedence to the predicate Royal Highness over that of Imperial and Royal Highness, since Princess Astrid and her children's HI&RH was permanently replaced with HRH in 1991 when they acquired Belgian dynastic rights (see the above post).


Quote:
Originally Posted by kimebear View Post
Technically, everyone should curtsy/bow to the Emperor of Japan as he is an Imperial Majesty and not just a Majesty, but this is not observed in practice.
In the postwar period, the emperor's honorific of Heika has been translated as Majesty rather than Imperial Majesty.

https://www.kunaicho.go.jp/e-about/
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