The Royal Forums Coat of Arms


Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #3121  
Old 08-12-2018, 07:13 AM
LadyRohan's Avatar
Courtier
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Sweden, Slovenia
Posts: 566
Quote:
Originally Posted by fandesacs2003 View Post
Sorry but i don't understand why Princess Charlene should curtsey, she is the wife of a ruling Prince, and Prince Charles is the Prince of Wales, it doesn't look correct to curtsey.
She shouldn’t in my book. The Prince of Wales is the heir, the Princess is the consort of a sovereign. In my book, he should nod to her and she should gracefully accept his respect for her station. Then again, royalty who has married into royal families tend to make these errors from time to time. I would hand it down to a bit of nerves and a wish to avoid mistakes, therein leading to the mistake. As far as mistakes go however, this is certainly the smallest one to make. The only reason it’s a little more fun than some others, is the visibility of it

There is another side of the argument that some have made, and that is that titles reflect different ranks of royalty. For example, as heads of state, most presidents and kings do not bow to the only emperor left, the Japanese one, but some, including Obama, have chosen to bow, and that is technically not wrong. The rank of Emperor is the highest one to be had in our world of titles, whereas kings and presidents would be equalled at tier 2 of a ‘ranking ladder’. Royal Highnesses outrank Serene Highnesses, who would equal Grand-Ducal Highnesses, who all outrank Highnesses etc etc.
However, in the world today, it would appear to me that most would equalize one head of state with another, regardless of title, with the possible exceptions of an Imperial Majesty and His Holiness the Pope, who for historical and religious reasons are still held in the highest tier of esteem and reverence. After that, one sovereign does not need to bow to another, but can choose to, as, again, it is simply a mark of respect and not the claimed act of subservience by those who have little historical or cultural appreciation.
An heir to a throne would genuflect/bow to a sovereign, and a member of a royal family would do the same to any other member who outranks them. Everyone else, from ministers to citizens, who choose to follow the custom, would genuflect/bow to all of the above in an encounter and would never be wrong for doing so.
__________________

__________________
"He who has never failed to reach perfection, has a right to be the harshest critic" - Queen Elizabeth II
Reply With Quote
  #3122  
Old 08-12-2018, 07:44 AM
Queen Claude's Avatar
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: USA, United States
Posts: 1,025
I think that Charlene's curtsy was a mistake, a minor one of course, and probably borne out of her being in the habit of curtsying to royals during her fiance years.


Note that Albert did not bow.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #3123  
Old 08-12-2018, 07:53 AM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Pittsburgh, United States
Posts: 5,773
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyRohan View Post
She shouldn’t in my book. The Prince of Wales is the heir, the Princess is the consort of a sovereign. In my book, he should nod to her and she should gracefully accept his respect for her station. Then again, royalty who has married into royal families tend to make these errors from time to time. I would hand it down to a bit of nerves and a wish to avoid mistakes, therein leading to the mistake. As far as mistakes go however, this is certainly the smallest one to make. The only reason it’s a little more fun than some others, is the visibility of it

There is another side of the argument that some have made, and that is that titles reflect different ranks of royalty. For example, as heads of state, most presidents and kings do not bow to the only emperor left, the Japanese one, but some, including Obama, have chosen to bow, and that is technically not wrong. The rank of Emperor is the highest one to be had in our world of titles, whereas kings and presidents would be equalled at tier 2 of a ‘ranking ladder’. Royal Highnesses outrank Serene Highnesses, who would equal Grand-Ducal Highnesses, who all outrank Highnesses etc etc.
However, in the world today, it would appear to me that most would equalize one head of state with another, regardless of title, with the possible exceptions of an Imperial Majesty and His Holiness the Pope, who for historical and religious reasons are still held in the highest tier of esteem and reverence. After that, one sovereign does not need to bow to another, but can choose to, as, again, it is simply a mark of respect and not the claimed act of subservience by those who have little historical or cultural appreciation.
An heir to a throne would genuflect/bow to a sovereign, and a member of a royal family would do the same to any other member who outranks them. Everyone else, from ministers to citizens, who choose to follow the custom, would genuflect/bow to all of the above in an encounter and would never be wrong for doing so.

Even if we accept the debatable notion that the sovereign of a principality should not bow to the heir of a kingdom, Charlene is not a sovereign, but rather merely a consort.
Reply With Quote
  #3124  
Old 08-12-2018, 09:52 AM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 5,491
She is the wife of a sovereign prince.. so outranks an heir...
Reply With Quote
  #3125  
Old 08-12-2018, 10:59 AM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 2,219
Quote:
Originally Posted by Queen Claude View Post
I think that Charlene's curtsy was a mistake, a minor one of course, and probably borne out of her being in the habit of curtsying to royals during her fiance years.


Note that Albert did not bow.
Yes I noticed that Albert didn't bow which was correct. Charles and Camilla should have bowed/curtsied to him and his wife.
Reply With Quote
  #3126  
Old 08-12-2018, 11:17 AM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Pittsburgh, United States
Posts: 5,773
Quote:
Originally Posted by sophie25 View Post
Yes I noticed that Albert didn't bow which was correct. Charles and Camilla should have bowed/curtsied to him and his wife.

Charles never bowed to the Grand Duke of Luxembourg (a sovereign HRH). Why should he bow the Prince of Monaco (a sovereign HSH) ?
Reply With Quote
  #3127  
Old 08-12-2018, 11:51 AM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Netherlands
Posts: 10,268
Quote:
Originally Posted by sophie25 View Post
Yes I noticed that Albert didn't bow which was correct. Charles and Camilla should have bowed/curtsied to him and his wife.
The word should is wrong. A curtsey or a bow is always optional and never required.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fandesacs2003 View Post
Sorry but i don't understand why Princess Charlene should curtsey, she is the wife of a ruling Prince, and Prince Charles is the Prince of Wales, it doesn't look correct to curtsey.
A curtsey or a bow are always an option, never a requirement. Equally someone is free to go through the knees. If Princess Charlène has the urge to curtsy to The Prince of Wales, it is never wrong. After all she greeted him and that was the purpose.
Reply With Quote
  #3128  
Old 08-12-2018, 12:50 PM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 2,219
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
The word should is wrong. A curtsey or a bow is always optional and never required.
I agree but if that case there's little point in having this thread. Just no one bow or cutsey to anyone and forget about it.
Reply With Quote
  #3129  
Old 08-12-2018, 12:51 PM
LadyRohan's Avatar
Courtier
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Sweden, Slovenia
Posts: 566
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Even if we accept the debatable notion that the sovereign of a principality should not bow to the heir of a kingdom, Charlene is not a sovereign, but rather merely a consort.

She is, just as I wrote in the first sentence of the text you quoted :)
__________________
"He who has never failed to reach perfection, has a right to be the harshest critic" - Queen Elizabeth II
Reply With Quote
  #3130  
Old 08-12-2018, 01:07 PM
Majesty
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Warsaw, Poland
Posts: 8,788
Quote:
Originally Posted by Denville View Post
She is the wife of a sovereign prince.. so outranks an heir...

But she is a generation-younger than him.
Reply With Quote
  #3131  
Old 08-12-2018, 01:19 PM
An Ard Ri's Avatar
Super Moderator
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: An Iarmhí, Ireland
Posts: 26,659
Curtsies for the Queen by members of the British RF.

https://goo.gl/images/2W6fBe

Curtsies for Queen Letizia of Spain

https://goo.gl/images/jJjwyV

https://goo.gl/images/g2ZuKC
Reply With Quote
  #3132  
Old 08-29-2018, 12:26 PM
Majesty
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: *******, Canada
Posts: 8,914
The Duke and Duchess of Cambridge bowing and curtsying to HM The Queen at the royal wedding

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dlx1aReX...pg&name=medium
Reply With Quote
  #3133  
Old 09-05-2018, 09:28 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Hamilton, Canada
Posts: 666
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
We were not required to bow or curtsy but we were expected to treat others with respect at all times. There was a time though I was required to bow and that was after the symphony orchestra I played with finished, we all stood up and bowed to the audience in appreciation for their clapping.

I sometimes curtsy to my piano/vocal teacher during recital prep, when I'm doing a complete run through during my lesson and she pretends she's the whole audience and applauds me when I'm done ("A little curtsy?" she cutely asked me in her girlish voice one time after I did one), although last year at the year-end recital I was feeling a little bit shy about curtsying to the entire audience, so on my way back to my seat I stopped in front of hers in the front row and just gave her a little dip (I was wearing a floor-length lightweight white summer dress); she smiled prettily back at me.
Reply With Quote
  #3134  
Old 09-05-2018, 09:47 PM
Princess Larisa's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: ., Croatia
Posts: 3,638

Why are you posting the same posts two pages apart?
Reply With Quote
  #3135  
Old 09-05-2018, 09:49 PM
Somebody's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Somewhere, Suriname
Posts: 4,316
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
We were not required to bow or curtsy but we were expected to treat others with respect at all times. There was a time though I was required to bow and that was after the symphony orchestra I played with finished, we all stood up and bowed to the audience in appreciation for their clapping.
How fun, I never thought of the performers bowing (I don't remember seeing anyone do a curtsy - like sarahedwards2) to the audience as them showing appreciation for the applause of the audience. I mainly think of it as the way they receive the appreciation of the crowds.
Reply With Quote
  #3136  
Old 09-06-2018, 10:11 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Hamilton, Canada
Posts: 666
Quote:
Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
How fun, I never thought of the performers bowing (I don't remember seeing anyone do a curtsy - like sarahedwards2) to the audience as them showing appreciation for the applause of the audience. I mainly think of it as the way they receive the appreciation of the crowds.


At the recital my teacher says to take a little bow after your performance, but almost no one does. I asked my teacher about it and she said they’re all too shy or nervous to do it.
Reply With Quote
  #3137  
Old 09-07-2018, 05:47 AM
MARG's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
Posts: 9,372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Denville View Post
She is the wife of a sovereign prince.. so outranks an heir...
You are correct however I believe we have to leave room for the human factor. Charlene is or was South African and the Queen is the head of the Commonwealth. That means, in the abstract, that the BRF were "her" royal family growing up and like most would respect them and expect to probably never actually meet one of them.

Then bang, years have passed, she has grown up, married a Prince and is herself HSH Princess Charlene and suddenly she is face to face with "her" royal family and she curtseys whether automatically or because it is a mark of respect to someone she has held in respect for most of her life is unknown.

What is known is the HSH Princess Charlene of Monaco has impeccable manners and her (unnecessary) curtsey probably provided a pleasant ice-breaker.
__________________
MARG
"Words ought to be a little wild, for they are assaults of thoughts on the unthinking." - JM Keynes
Reply With Quote
  #3138  
Old 09-07-2018, 09:40 AM
AdmirerUS's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Midwest, United States
Posts: 6,025
Coverage of the US Open Tennis Women's semifinal discussed Osaka's practice of bowing to the crowd after the match.

It was an interesting discussion. Osaka was born in Japan to an American Dad/Japanese Mom and the family moved to the US when she was 3. Eventually, she had to make a choice of what country to represent. Dad decided (I think it was Chris Evert - but one of the TV talking hands that relayed this) on Japan as there was less competition for top spots and funding in Japanese tennis. A big part of the chat was about Osaka straddling two cultures at the tender age of 20. And how the bow helps her to do that.

And I would agree that bows help show respect for cultures that recognize them. Imagine a world where we all had to stop and bow when we were getting in a heated argument. The pause alone would be refreshing. I can dream.
__________________
"And the tabloid press will be a pain in the ass, as usual." - Royal Norway
Reply With Quote
  #3139  
Old 09-13-2018, 09:19 PM
CyrilVladisla's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Conneaut, United States
Posts: 5,567
Actress Brigitte Bardot curtseyed to Queen Elizabeth II during a Royal Film Performance.
http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-act...-69301496.html
Reply With Quote
  #3140  
Old 09-29-2018, 01:22 PM
fandesacs2003's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Athens, Greece
Posts: 4,692
Quote:
Originally Posted by MARG View Post
You are correct however I believe we have to leave room for the human factor. Charlene is or was South African and the Queen is the head of the Commonwealth. That means, in the abstract, that the BRF were "her" royal family growing up and like most would respect them and expect to probably never actually meet one of them.

Then bang, years have passed, she has grown up, married a Prince and is herself HSH Princess Charlene and suddenly she is face to face with "her" royal family and she curtseys whether automatically or because it is a mark of respect to someone she has held in respect for most of her life is unknown.

What is known is the HSH Princess Charlene of Monaco has impeccable manners and her (unnecessary) curtsey probably provided a pleasant ice-breaker.
You are right. I would also like to point out this discus that there is another important factor :the respect. Technically princess Charlene is not obliged to curtsey neither they were Carla Bruni or Bernadette Chirac beu they did. From respect to the queen and her age I believe
__________________

Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 2 (0 members and 2 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





Popular Tags
althorp anastasia anastasia once upon a time ancestry belgian royal family castles charles of wales chittagong clarence house crown princess victoria danish history denmark diana princess of wales dna duchess of cambridge dutch dutch history dutch royal family family tree foundation future games germany haakon vii henry v hill history house of bourbon house of glucksburg house of saxe-coburg and gotha interesting intro jacobite jumma kids movie king salman languages list of rulers lithuanian castles mailing memoir monaco history nobel 2019 official visit pakistan palaces palestine prince charles princess elizabeth royal balls royal children royal events royal tour royal wedding russian imperial family saudi arabia snowdon spanish history spencer family state visit sweden swedish royal family swedish royalty thai royal family tracts unsubscribe usa videos wedding gown wittelsbach


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:34 AM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2020
Jelsoft Enterprises
×