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  #2721  
Old 08-04-2017, 01:14 PM
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In England morganatic marriage isn't recognised. Under common law a person who marries into the royal family is just as 'royal' as blood royals.

Catherine for example is both a princess and a peeress. So if The Duke of Cambridge is deserving of a bow of the head, The Duchess of Cambridge is equally deserving of a curtsey.
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  #2722  
Old 08-04-2017, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Just because they married (will marry) a royal you are willing to go down your knees?.
If they married a royal then they become a royal. Period.

I don't understand how one can be so fixated on titles/status some women are given by birth, yet willing to wave off the same titles/status if given through marriage. What an illogical, nonsensical way of thinking!
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  #2723  
Old 08-04-2017, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by duchessrachel View Post
I am an American and I got attacked awhile back for being supportive of curtsying to the royal family, so there is no winning this argument.
I will not curtsy to anyone I don't feel deserves it and to me being born or marrying someone does not mean you deserve it.
But the idea that us being American negates us from standing against archaic, insulting beliefs like the ones duc et par always expresses regarding "commoners" and then marrying royalty does not sit well with me. It is this idea and "custom" that spurs on those who look down on the Middleton's as upstarts who don't know their place.
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  #2724  
Old 08-04-2017, 08:03 PM
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There is no such thing as royalty. It is a made up concept by those with the biggest swords, so to speak. They kept their town folk and ministers, at bay, by making up this, I was sent by God to rule over you stuff. Hence the anointing, etc. There is nothing special about them. In times when people were bullied into this state of affairs, bowing and curtseying was expected to show you were "royal". Today, we may like the queen, she is a very nice person, but she is no better than any other person. So, if you marry a royal, you are a royal. So, if I stand in a garage I am a car. It's archaic, like slavery and serfdom. And wrong.
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  #2725  
Old 08-04-2017, 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by LadyRohan View Post

Of course, for someone who constantly refers to the Queen of Spain by her maiden name, the Queen of the Netherlands similarly, it comes as no surprise that this view is espoused. To try and pass it off as anything but silly snobbery and pettiness however, is pointless.
I also have a problem with this attitude as well. Queen Letizia and especially Queen Maxima have conducted themselves well and have represented their countries well. Sometimes the way these "commoner brides" act put the born princesses to shame.
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  #2726  
Old 08-04-2017, 08:40 PM
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There is a difference in a full blown curtsy or bow as was done in years past (and occasionally by some people currently) and the head bob we see from most people now as a sign of respect for a royal's position. As a US citizen, I doubt I would curtsy (for one thing, I probably couldn't do a real curtsy) but I can't say I wouldn't bob my head when shaking hands if i got to meet Queen Elizabeth.

I agree, some consorts have conducted themselves better than some of those born royal, apparently excepting Prince Henrik at the moment.
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  #2727  
Old 08-04-2017, 09:52 PM
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Originally Posted by COUNTESS View Post
There is no such thing as royalty. It is a made up concept by those with the biggest swords, so to speak. They kept their town folk and ministers, at bay, by making up this, I was sent by God to rule over you stuff. Hence the anointing, etc. There is nothing special about them. In times when people were bullied into this state of affairs, bowing and curtseying was expected to show you were "royal". Today, we may like the queen, she is a very nice person, but she is no better than any other person. So, if you marry a royal, you are a royal. So, if I stand in a garage I am a car. It's archaic, like slavery and serfdom. And wrong.

Again, bowing and cutsying has nothing to do with one thinking of him/herself as "inferior" to someone else. It is just a social custom to greet people like shaking hands. In the past, it used to be done not only to royalty, but pretty much to any courtier. In some countries like Japan, bowing is still the standard way to greet anyone (they even bowed to me when I was there and I can assure you I am not even remotely superior to anyone or don't even look superior in any sense).

Basically, when you assume that a lady who performs a curtsy thinks of the person she cursties to as "better" than her, you are just projecting the values and preconceptions of your own culture onto somebody else's culture. Princess Anne for example performed a deep curtsy to King Felipe a few weeks ago at the Guildall dinner and I'm pretty sure she doesn't think of herself as being inferior to Felipe.
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  #2728  
Old 09-04-2017, 08:25 PM
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Would someone be required to curtsy to Her Royal Highness Princess Alexandra of Kent, is it that she is a lesser royal that you don't have to bow.
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  #2729  
Old 09-04-2017, 08:29 PM
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No one is required to bow or curtesy to anyone. You don't even have to do it to Queen Elizabeth II. They are not going to arrest you if you don't do it.
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  #2730  
Old 09-04-2017, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Westfield Bakery View Post
Would someone be required to curtsy to Her Royal Highness Princess Alexandra of Kent, is it that she is a lesser royal that you don't have to bow.
There's no requirements to curtsy or bow but, yes, you can curtsy and bow to Princess Alexandra.
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  #2731  
Old 09-05-2017, 02:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XeniaCasaraghi View Post
I will not curtsy to anyone I don't feel deserves it and to me being born or marrying someone does not mean you deserve it.
But the idea that us being American negates us from standing against archaic, insulting beliefs like the ones duc et par always expresses regarding "commoners" and then marrying royalty does not sit well with me. It is this idea and "custom" that spurs on those who look down on the Middleton's as upstarts who don't know their place.
For the good order, it has nothing to do with being royalborn or not. I would not bow by head to Juan Carlos de Borbón y Borbón and if I was a lady I would not go through my knees for Philip of Greece and Denmark. I would respectfully offer my hand to them in a nice and well-meant handshake. The ones who blame me for making a difference between royals and commoners I would like to look to the top of this page and see the second word of the title: The Royal Forums.

This means we are discussing royals. And when we discuss royals we make a difference in royals and non-royals, like you and me. Sometimes things are pretty simple, it is as it is. Elizabeth II von Sachsen-Coburg und Gotha, known as "Windsor", is a royal. Miss Meghan Markle is a commoner. Sometimes things are what they are.

The ones blaming me for archaïc because I point to that difference are in no position to do so, when on their own turn they are willing, as self-conscious, well-educated and assured citizens to go through the knees for a Kate, mumbling in utter adoration "Your Royal Highness" showing servitude and obedience. And then having the guts to blame another poster for being archaïc?

For the good order: if we are denying any difference between royals and commoners because of the political-correctness-brigade here, am I allowed to open a thread to discuss Emmanuel Macron and his spouse Brigitte? No royals, but that is a dirty word here, apparently.
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  #2732  
Old 09-16-2017, 05:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudolph View Post
In England morganatic marriage isn't recognised. Under common law a person who marries into the royal family is just as 'royal' as blood royals.

Catherine for example is both a princess and a peeress. So if The Duke of Cambridge is deserving of a bow of the head, The Duchess of Cambridge is equally deserving of a curtsey.
The same applies to HRH Prince Harry and who ever he marries
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  #2733  
Old 09-16-2017, 10:04 PM
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This is a thread about royal protocol, specifically bowing and curtseying. How is it that we are arguing as to whether particular Princes, Princesses, or Queens are deserving of said practice by virtue of their birth?
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  #2734  
Old 09-16-2017, 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted by MARG View Post
This is a thread about royal protocol, specifically bowing and curtseying. How is it that we are arguing as to whether particular Princes, Princesses, or Queens are deserving of said practice by virtue of their birth?
I think the conversation applies. It's about shifting protocols.

In this I have to agree with the gist of @Duc_et_Pair 's points. The bow and curtsey have a history. It does make sense that the custom applies to those born into that history (when conducting official functions out of that history).

For those not so born, it is not just vaguely, but overtly, strange, to have done to one. It 'makes sense' in other contexts where the action is done to the office held, like with the Pope. Still, it remains a medieval custom, and few moderns would find it comfortable. JMO.
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  #2735  
Old 10-12-2017, 12:58 AM
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Mary forgetting to curtsy to the Emperor of Japan while Frederik is bowing all over the place.
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  #2736  
Old 10-12-2017, 02:22 AM
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I don't know what the context was but even Fred looked funny when he stepped up to shake hands and bow to the Emperor. It looked like he was waiting for a cue and then positively bounced up to take his hand.

Mary showed that even after all this time when the tension and expectations are high, you can still blow it. I think she probably had it all set in her mind and he broke her concentration when he spoke to her. She recovered beautifully when she shook hands, curtseyed and did the double peck to the Empress.

Actually, I think that was a true royal culture crash and I use that word advisedly. Royals generally follow the handshake, bow/curtsey and double peck but when you come to Japan their customary greeting is to bow which is why I think Fred too had the same mindset as Mary but hey, when he correctly bowed European style and shook hands, he got a pass and to be honest, he looked like he was saying "Yeeees!!!!" to himself when he pulled that off.
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  #2737  
Old 10-12-2017, 02:30 AM
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They both seemed to let their nerves get to them. Her not bowing, him bowing repeatedly both were a bit odd at best. I'd think a born royal like Fred, who has been doing this for decades, would be a tad less nervous.
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  #2738  
Old 10-12-2017, 02:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Lady Nimue View Post
I think the conversation applies. It's about shifting protocols.

In this I have to agree with the gist of @Duc_et_Pair 's points. The bow and curtsey have a history. It does make sense that the custom applies to those born into that history (when conducting official functions out of that history).

For those not so born, it is not just vaguely, but overtly, strange, to have done to one. It 'makes sense' in other contexts where the action is done to the office held, like with the Pope. Still, it remains a medieval custom, and few moderns would find it comfortable. JMO.
The Queen mother was not royal until her marriage when she became HRH The Duchess of York, so to Diana when she became HRH The Princess of Wales. That they came from aristocratic families is irrelevant. The same applies to HRH Queen Silvia, HRH Queen Sonja, HRH Queen Mathilde, HRH Queen Maxima, HRH Queen Letizia, HRH GD Maria Teresa, HRH CP Mary, HRH CP Mette Marit, HRH Prince Daniel, HRH HGD Stephanie, et al.

There would be times when a bow or curtsey is the only polite action to take and there is no way civility would encourage anyone to decide whether the recipient was deserving of that mark of respect to their position. It has been said that true majesty isn’t determined by one’s background, but by one’s character.
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  #2739  
Old 10-18-2017, 12:06 PM
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Baroness Brady of Knightsbridge curtseys to The Duke of Cambridge at today’s Coach Core engagement

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DMbpFUjX...jpg&name=large
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  #2740  
Old 10-18-2017, 12:08 PM
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Totally off topic...I want her plum coat!
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