The Royal Forums Coat of Arms


Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #2701  
Old 08-01-2017, 08:58 PM
XeniaCasaraghi's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Texas, United States
Posts: 3,688
IMO a salute is a sign of respect from one soldier to another, soldiers are people who have actually accomplished something more than just being born. If Americans don't have a right to their opinion then I guess this should just be a EU board or an EU only thread.
I will say I will not state that curtseying is stupid and will try to refrain from criticizing the custom in a condescending way.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #2702  
Old 08-01-2017, 09:43 PM
Ish's Avatar
Ish Ish is offline
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 4,107
Quote:
Originally Posted by XeniaCasaraghi View Post
IMO a salute is a sign of respect from one soldier to another, soldiers are people who have actually accomplished something more than just being born. If Americans don't have a right to their opinion then I guess this should just be a EU board or an EU only thread.
I will say I will not state that curtseying is stupid and will try to refrain from criticizing the custom in a condescending way.


What does the EU have to do with this?

Many monarchies are not in Europe - in fact Queen Elizabeth II is the monarch of 15 nations that are not in Europe, let alone in the EU (and one nation that, while being in Europe is in the process of leaving the EU).

If you look at what is being said, some posters (primarily from the US) are attacking the custom of curtsying as being archaic, while other posters (primarily not from the US) are saying that American posters should refrain from criticizing a custom that they don't understand. This attitude is fairly common on these forums - it is common for some American posters to attack and/or criticize customs and practices of monarchies (and even the institution of monarchy itself) simply because they differ greatly from the ideals promoted in American culture.

American cultural values are not wrong, but neither are they superior to non-American values. And while there is much that can be said about the practice of curtsying and bowing, simply dismissing it out of hand as archaic because it goes against American values is hugely disrespectful to the cultures which continue to embrace the custom - particularly as it is not a symbol of subservience to a person, like is often believed by American posters, but rather a symbol of respect to an institution (and an entirely voluntary one at that).
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #2703  
Old 08-01-2017, 10:21 PM
M. Payton's Avatar
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: USA, United States
Posts: 1,851

Just *Brilliant comment* and so very much agree with you. I can only speak for me, yet if I met a royal I would not mind curtsying at all, it is a matter of respect to the country and the position that the royal holds. I think from my own view point and not just here, but in life in general, lots of Americans need to learn the *customs* of other countries and remember that America is not the only country on this planet. IMO I think we as Americans put ourselves in a little box and do not peak out unless something horrible happens. Sometimes I question if most Americans even know that there are kings, queens and royals outside the history books if they even read those books......

Curtsying is just a form of respect like a handshake or a kiss on both cheeks and it is up the individual if they chose to do it or not.....as long as I do not fall flat on my face, I would love to curtsy to a king or Queen, would even love a picture of it for ole time sake...
Reply With Quote
  #2704  
Old 08-02-2017, 08:49 AM
Marchesina's Avatar
Courtier
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Pescara, Italy
Posts: 809
Quote:
Originally Posted by carlota View Post
i found this picture explaining who kate needs to curtsy to when she is alone, and who curtsies kate always. in the picture, it says the sophie, zara and harrys wife must curtsy to kate always. WHAT?! i have never seen sophie or zara curtsying to kate. wonder if the chart is incorrect?

http://www.macleans.ca/wp-content/up...urtseykate.jpg
If we lived in 18th century France, when protocol and etiquette were at their highest peak, probably this chart would be correct. Catherine is not a Princess of the Blood which would make her lower in rank to other royal women. But I think that,still in this hypothetical 18th century, Catherine becoming wife of the heir with Charles accession she would outrank the York Princesses and Princess Alexandra.
Reply With Quote
  #2705  
Old 08-02-2017, 08:57 AM
Dman's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Midwest, United States
Posts: 15,830
Quote:
Originally Posted by carlota View Post
i also do not find it necessary for mrs. may to curtsy to william and kate. she is the PM after all, and although she owes respect to the queen (and, okay, to the heir, charles) i doubt she is required to curtsy to anyone else. the sooner we know, she will be curtsying to george and that is just not right.

i found this picture explaining who kate needs to curtsy to when she is alone, and who curtsies kate always. in the picture, it says the sophie, zara and harrys wife must curtsy to kate always. WHAT?! i have never seen sophie or zara curtsying to kate. wonder if the chart is incorrect?

http://www.macleans.ca/wp-content/up...urtseykate.jpg
Members of the royal family don't curtsy to one another. They only curtsy and bow to The Queen.

I blame palace officials for not clearing this up when the media went nuts over reports that Catherine have curtsy to the blood royals when William isn't present.
__________________
"WE CANNOT PRAY IN LOVE AND LIVE IN HATE AND STILL THINK WE ARE WORSHIPING GOD."

A.W. TOZER
Reply With Quote
  #2706  
Old 08-02-2017, 09:47 AM
Moonmaiden23's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Los Angeles, United States
Posts: 9,809
I am an American, and I see nothing wrong with bowing or curtsying as a mark of respect to one's sovereign. I think it's a lovely, old, courtly mark of respect.

I genuflect(as do most other parishioners) when I am in church and the Cardinal or one of his Bishops visit and I approach him. It would not occur to me to do otherwise.

What is the harm?

Of course anyone who doesn't want to is not compelled to do so.
__________________
"Be who God intended you to be, and you will set the world on fire" St. Catherine of Siena

"The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice". Martin Luther King Jr. 1929-1968
Reply With Quote
  #2707  
Old 08-02-2017, 09:54 AM
Dman's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Midwest, United States
Posts: 15,830
What people don't understand that there's no longer a rule that you have to curtsy to The Queen or any other member of the royal family. It's all down to your own personal choice.

It was PM May's personal choice to curtsy to the Cambridge's.
__________________
"WE CANNOT PRAY IN LOVE AND LIVE IN HATE AND STILL THINK WE ARE WORSHIPING GOD."

A.W. TOZER
Reply With Quote
  #2708  
Old 08-02-2017, 10:01 AM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Netherlands
Posts: 10,268
Quote:
Originally Posted by Princess Bobbi View Post
I've been lurking for years and have only asked one or two questions before. I do I have a quick question. I am disabled and not able to curtsy to anyone. If I ever met a Royal, would it ever be appropriate for me, as a woman to bow to royalty and if you have a link showing that, I"d really appreciate it.
Making a révérence (ladies) or a bow (gentlemen) is always optional and is never required. So when you are introduced to a royal, a nice handshake is simply perfect indeed.
Reply With Quote
  #2709  
Old 08-02-2017, 10:22 AM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Netherlands
Posts: 10,268
For myself bows or curtsies to Her Majesty The Queen feels as "natural". Besides the immense history she carries in person, it is also a sign of respect for the high Office of State.

It feels unnatural to see people sinking down their knees for a Máxima Zorreguieta, for a Letizia Ortiz or for a Camilla Shand. There is absolutely nothing wrong with them and each lady is an asset to their respective monarchies. But they are not royalborn, not even from the aristocracy, they have no Office of State and are in fact nothing less than "the spouse of".

Suddenly, because they became "the wife of" and now suddenly it is going down the knees and mumble with servitude: "Your Royal Highness" / "Your Majesty". Then -for me- we have reached the point that it has become a vaudeville.

The late Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester was no royalborn lady either but born Lady Alice Christabel Montagu Douglas Scott she was so immensely deep connected with the fine web of the who-is-who in Britain and had links to almost all the most esteemed families in the peerages. So the there was an intrinsic "load" to Princess Alice. (The same applied to the other Princess Alice, and to the Queen Mother, and to Diana, Princess of Wales).

Monarchy is not an exact science. It needs to appeal to a certain feeling, historical awareness and a sort of national instinct. Never it would occur to me to bow down for a Kate, a Máxima or Mette-Marit. I would never hesistate to bow for the Princess Royal or for a Queen Sofía.
Reply With Quote
  #2710  
Old 08-02-2017, 10:23 AM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: St Thomas, U.S. Minor Outlying Islands
Posts: 2,323
Quote:
Originally Posted by carlota View Post

i found this picture explaining who kate needs to curtsy to when she is alone, and who curtsies kate always. in the picture, it says the sophie, zara and harrys wife must curtsy to kate always. WHAT?! i have never seen sophie or zara curtsying to kate. wonder if the chart is incorrect?

http://www.macleans.ca/wp-content/up...urtseykate.jpg

The chart may have confused curtseying with the British order of precedence amongst women.

Quote:
Precedence Amongst Ladies in England and Wales

The Table of Precedence, arranged according to rank and status, can be used to dictate the order in which people arrive and depart at official functions, are announced, seating plans (both official and social) and list of signatories to a document.


THE QUEEN
The Sovereign’s Daughter
The Sovereign’s Granddaughters
The Sovereign’s Cousin
The Wife of the Heir Apparent
Wives of the Younger Sons of the Sovereign
Wives of Dukes of the Blood Royal
Wives of Princes of the Blood Royal
Duchesses of England
Duchesses of Scotland
Duchesses of Great Britain
Duchesses of Ireland
Duchesses of UK and Ireland since the Union
Wives of Eldest Sons of Dukes of the Blood Royal
Marchionesses of England
Marchionesses of Scotland
Marchionesses of Great Britain
Marchionesses of Ireland
Marchionesses of UK and Ireland since the Union
Wives of Eldest Sons of Dukes
Daughters of Dukes
Countesses of England
Countesses of Scotland
Countesses of Great Britain
Countesses of Ireland
Countesses of UK and Ireland since the Union
Wives of Younger Sons of Dukes of the Blood Royal
Wives of Eldest Sons of Marquesses
Daughters of Marquesses
Wives of Younger Sons of Dukes
Viscountesses of England
Viscountesses of Scotland
Viscountesses of Great Britain
Viscountesses of Ireland
Viscountesses of UK and Ireland since the Union
Wives of Eldest Sons of Earls
Daughters of Earls
Wives of Younger Sons of Marquesses
Baronesses of England
Ladies of Parliament, Scotland
Baronesses of Great Britain
Baronesses of Ireland
Baronesses of UK and Ireland since the Union, including Life
Baronesses and Wives of Life Barons
Wives of the Eldest Sons of Viscounts
Daughters of Viscounts
Wives of Younger Sons of Earls
Wives of the Eldest Sons of Barons
Daughters of Barons
Ladies of the Garter
Wives of Knights of the Garter
Privy Counsellors (Women)
Wives of Younger Sons of Viscounts
Wives of Younger Sons of Barons
Wives of Sons of Life Peers
[…]
Reply With Quote
  #2711  
Old 08-02-2017, 11:02 AM
duchessrachel's Avatar
Courtier
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Birmingham, United States
Posts: 937
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ish View Post
What does the EU have to do with this?

Many monarchies are not in Europe - in fact Queen Elizabeth II is the monarch of 15 nations that are not in Europe, let alone in the EU (and one nation that, while being in Europe is in the process of leaving the EU).

If you look at what is being said, some posters (primarily from the US) are attacking the custom of curtsying as being archaic, while other posters (primarily not from the US) are saying that American posters should refrain from criticizing a custom that they don't understand. This attitude is fairly common on these forums - it is common for some American posters to attack and/or criticize customs and practices of monarchies (and even the institution of monarchy itself) simply because they differ greatly from the ideals promoted in American culture.

American cultural values are not wrong, but neither are they superior to non-American values. And while there is much that can be said about the practice of curtsying and bowing, simply dismissing it out of hand as archaic because it goes against American values is hugely disrespectful to the cultures which continue to embrace the custom - particularly as it is not a symbol of subservience to a person, like is often believed by American posters, but rather a symbol of respect to an institution (and an entirely voluntary one at that).
I am an American and I got attacked awhile back for being supportive of curtsying to the royal family, so there is no winning this argument.
Reply With Quote
  #2712  
Old 08-02-2017, 11:23 AM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Netherlands
Posts: 10,268
Quote:
Originally Posted by duchessrachel View Post
I am American but I would gladly curtsy to any of the working royal family members because I am such an admirer of them and of their commitment to service. However, it hurts my knees so I am afraid they would have to pick me up off the floor afterward.
Of course you are completely free to go down your knees and mumble in utter adoration, with servitude and obedience "Your Royal Highness" to Meghan Markle. No one will stop you to do so. For myself I think that this will be the summum of the theatre play called How-Busy-We-Are-With-The-Who-Is-Fooling-Who-Here ?
Reply With Quote
  #2713  
Old 08-02-2017, 12:52 PM
Jacknch's Avatar
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Suffolk, United Kingdom
Posts: 7,997
It all seems a simple case of each country - north, east, south and west of world - will have it's own customs and within each country individuals will have their own customs too. It's what makes the world go round.
__________________
JACK
Reply With Quote
  #2714  
Old 08-02-2017, 02:24 PM
Pranter's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Midwest, United States
Posts: 11,906
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Of course you are completely free to go down your knees and mumble in utter adoration, with servitude and obedience "Your Royal Highness" to Meghan Markle. No one will stop you to do so. For myself I think that this will be the summum of the theatre play called How-Busy-We-Are-With-The-Who-Is-Fooling-Who-Here ?
You really need to add some sugar to your coffee.


LaRae
Reply With Quote
  #2715  
Old 08-03-2017, 03:32 AM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Netherlands
Posts: 10,268
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pranter View Post
You really need to add some sugar to your coffee.


LaRae
Not at all. I have common sense. A handshake between two individuals is a greeting on par. Going down to your knees or making bow, is an act of servitude, of obedience, of reverence. I can imagine someone doing so towards the high-and wellborn lady Margrethe Alexandrine Thorhildur Ingrid von Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg, the current embodiment of the ancient Danish Crown.

I can not imagine someone with a sound mind doing so to a Máxima Zorreguieta, to a Meghan Markle, to a Marie Cavallier. Why would a self-conscious citizen suddenly going down the cracking knees and mumble "Your Royal Highness" to them? That is just a theatre play without any meaning.
Reply With Quote
  #2716  
Old 08-03-2017, 06:11 AM
LadyRohan's Avatar
Courtier
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Sweden, Slovenia
Posts: 566
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Not at all. I have common sense. A handshake between two individuals is a greeting on par. Going down to your knees or making bow, is an act of servitude, of obedience, of reverence. I can imagine someone doing so towards the high-and wellborn lady Margrethe Alexandrine Thorhildur Ingrid von Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg, the current embodiment of the ancient Danish Crown.

I can not imagine someone with a sound mind doing so to a Máxima Zorreguieta, to a Meghan Markle, to a Marie Cavallier. Why would a self-conscious citizen suddenly going down the cracking knees and mumble "Your Royal Highness" to them? That is just a theatre play without any meaning.
With all due respect, you are confusing 'common sense' with pomposity.
To give reverence and respect to someone because their family was given a certain rank centuries ago, but not doing the same for someone who is married into a royal house, is a distinction made by, fortunately, very few.
When I met the King of Norway while walking some time ago, it didn't occur to me not to slightly curtsey as we passed, and say 'Good evening, Your Majesty'. I cannot imagine not doing the same for Her Majesty the Queen, just because she was born into a 'commoner' family 80 years ago. Her efforts in representing, preserving and protecting the institution of monarchy and the Royal House of Norway is not one inch shy of the work the King has done, and to distinguish between a King and Queen because of the misguided belief that bloodlines is the main thing that keeps the monarchy going, is passé.
When curtseying, or showing reverence in any way, to a royal, one is showing respect and reverence to the office they hold, the work they do and the history and institution they represent.

Of course, for someone who constantly refers to the Queen of Spain by her maiden name, the Queen of the Netherlands similarly, it comes as no surprise that this view is espoused. To try and pass it off as anything but silly snobbery and pettiness however, is pointless.
__________________
"He who has never failed to reach perfection, has a right to be the harshest critic" - Queen Elizabeth II
Reply With Quote
  #2717  
Old 08-03-2017, 06:38 AM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Netherlands
Posts: 10,268
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyRohan View Post
With all due respect, you are confusing 'common sense' with pomposity.
To give reverence and respect to someone because their family was given a certain rank centuries ago, but not doing the same for someone who is married into a royal house, is a distinction made by, fortunately, very few.
When I met the King of Norway while walking some time ago, it didn't occur to me not to slightly curtsey as we passed, and say 'Good evening, Your Majesty'. I cannot imagine not doing the same for Her Majesty the Queen, just because she was born into a 'commoner' family 80 years ago. Her efforts in representing, preserving and protecting the institution of monarchy and the Royal House of Norway is not one inch shy of the work the King has done, and to distinguish between a King and Queen because of the misguided belief that bloodlines is the main thing that keeps the monarchy going, is passé.
When curtseying, or showing reverence in any way, to a royal, one is showing respect and reverence to the office they hold, the work they do and the history and institution they represent.

Of course, for someone who constantly refers to the Queen of Spain by her maiden name, the Queen of the Netherlands similarly, it comes as no surprise that this view is espoused. To try and pass it off as anything but silly snobbery and pettiness however, is pointless.
I think the summum of pomposity is going down to the knees, or making a bow (= showing servitude, obedience, reverence) for a person which just happens to be married to a HRH.

Note that we not only talk about Queens but also about a Meghan Markle or a Sofia Hellqvist, or a Mabel Wisse Smit. Just because they married (will marry) a royal you are willing to go down your knees? Be my guest, I would say. Do what your self-assured personality and sound mind reflexes inside you and sink down your knees for Meghan, Sofia or Mabel. No idea why... but no one will stop you anyway.

A handshake would equally be perfect (and possibly far more at ease for the ladies themselves!).
Reply With Quote
  #2718  
Old 08-03-2017, 07:00 AM
Osipi's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: On the west side of North up from Back, United States
Posts: 14,798
What it boils down to, frankly, is what one feels comfortable doing. No one would expect Duc to be any less than who he and to express himself however he wishes to and the same goes for each and every one of us. There's no right way or wrong way when something is totally optional. Its our choice.
__________________
No law can be sacred to me but that of my nature. Good and bad are but names very readily transferable to that or this; the only right is what is after my constitution, the only wrong what is against it.

~~~Ralph Waldo Emerson~~~
Reply With Quote
  #2719  
Old 08-03-2017, 10:04 AM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Netherlands
Posts: 10,268
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
What it boils down to, frankly, is what one feels comfortable doing. No one would expect Duc to be any less than who he and to express himself however he wishes to and the same goes for each and every one of us. There's no right way or wrong way when something is totally optional. Its our choice.
Sure it is. I feel the idea here is: "a cursty is such fun". But what is the message of making a curtsy or a bow? No one goes down the knees for anyone else. That is exactly what makes a curtsy or a bow special: you show servitude and obedience to a person.

While anyone is perfectly free to do so, I was astonished to read from a fellow poster from the USA that she "would gladly curtsy to any of the working royal family members", apparently because they work so hard, and for their commitment to service.

Eeeeerrrrmmmmm..... the nurses in the care home right around the corner work hard and are deeply committed to their blessed work. No one bows to them. But then some fellow posters will do for Meghan. Or Kate. Or Máxima. Anyway: posters feeling the knees getting wobbly in the sight of royals: do what you want.

Reply With Quote
  #2720  
Old 08-04-2017, 12:30 PM
duchessrachel's Avatar
Courtier
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Birmingham, United States
Posts: 937
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Sure it is. I feel the idea here is: "a cursty is such fun". But what is the message of making a curtsy or a bow? No one goes down the knees for anyone else. That is exactly what makes a curtsy or a bow special: you show servitude and obedience to a person.

While anyone is perfectly free to do so, I was astonished to read from a fellow poster from the USA that she "would gladly curtsy to any of the working royal family members", apparently because they work so hard, and for their commitment to service.

Eeeeerrrrmmmmm..... the nurses in the care home right around the corner work hard and are deeply committed to their blessed work. No one bows to them. But then some fellow posters will do for Meghan. Or Kate. Or Máxima. Anyway: posters feeling the knees getting wobbly in the sight of royals: do what you want.

Let me elaborate further. The service that the royal families do was not chosen by them. They were born into it and their life was decided for them. They did not get to make this choice. Those who marry into the royal families, as far as I am concerned, are just as much a royal as those who were "high and well-born" as you called it in a previous post. You defeat your own argument with that phrase, by the way. These people who marry into the royal families sever any chance of ever being able to make a choice for themselves in the future. If anything, they are to be more admired, but I admire blood royals and royals by marriage the same. This is really a fruitless conversation we are having because I won't change your mind and you definitely won't change my mind.
__________________

Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





Popular Tags
anastasia 2020 armstrong-jones belgian royal family bridal gown canada chittagong clarence house coronavirus countess of snowdon cover-up current events danish history denmark dna duke & duchess of cambridge; dutch history dutch royal family family tree fantasy movie future henry v hill history house of bernadotte house of glucksburg house of grimaldi house of orange-nassau interesting introduction jumma kent king philippe list of rulers lithuania marriage mbs nobel prize norwegian royal family official visit palaces palestine popularity prince charles princely family of monaco prince of wales queen mathilde queen maud queen paola romanov family royal balls royal events royal family royal spouse royal tour royalty royal wedding settings shakespeare spanish royal startling new evidence state visit stuart sweden swedish history thailand tips tracts united kingdom usa von hofmannsthal


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:22 AM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2020
Jelsoft Enterprises
×