Bowing and Curtseying - Page 124

Pranter · #**2461** 07-14-2016, 08:08 PM

Really has nothing to do with being outdated. It's not required at all. So it's up to the person to curtesy/bow or not.

LaRae

ROYAL NORWAY · #**2462** 07-14-2016, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by COUNTESS

Outdated and unnecessary act. Ms. May is far more4 important to the government.

She didn't have to do it.

And when it comes to being important or not: Theresa May is the head of the Her Majesty's government.

The Queen is the head of state of the UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and 12 other countries and is the figurehead of 2 billion people, and an international icon. She have also reigned for 64 years and is 90.

I liked that the new PM curtseyed and both Cameron, Brown, Blair and Major alvais bowed to her.

And COUNTESS, even if you don't like constitutional monarchies, you can try to respect those who support it.

Roslyn · #**2463** 07-14-2016, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by COUNTESS

Outdated and unnecessary act. Ms. May is far more4 important to the government.

I agree, but only because I believe that women should only give the brief head bow that men give. To me a curtsey is a far more subservient act and I see no reason why women should show their respect in a different manner from that which is deemed acceptable for men. I would think it very strange if a conservative UK prime minister did not at least give that head bow to their monarch - especially this monarch - even today.

Denville · #**2464** 07-14-2016, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Countessmeout

Yet there are members of the royal family who curtsey low, Zara does, and they surely know what is proper. And I would think Thatcher would have been well instructed on how to act.

Yes, deep curtsey is not expected, a curtsey at all is not required now a days (traditional would be to be lower than the eyes, but traditions change). It is not a social faux paux, or showing a lack of understanding, to curtsey low. Simply old-fashioned.

well I've never Seen Zara curtsying but I have seen Diana do it briefly and it was a "short bob"... Possibly at a big formal occasion, like a royal wedding, it is meant ot be a deep one.. I seem to remember Anne going "very low" at her wedding.. but in "ordinary meetings" it should I believe be a short bob.

As for Mrs T, she was in some ways very respectful of the monarchy, the "deep curtsy" but in other ways she wasn't. So she may have been a bit overawed by being in the queen's presence and curtsied low, but she did rather put herself on a footing with the queen in many other ways, and acted like She was "the big cheese" rather than HM.

Pranter · #**2465** 07-14-2016, 11:20 PM

There's a number of pics of Zara curtseying. Diana tended to have deep curtesy's.

LaRae

Countessmeout · #**2466** 07-14-2016, 11:23 PM

Pranter · #**2467** 07-14-2016, 11:37 PM

I think all the ballet help make Diana's so graceful.

LaRae

Ish · #**2468** 07-15-2016, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roslyn

I agree, but only because I believe that women should only give the brief head bow that men give. To me a curtsey is a far more subservient act and I see no reason why women should show their respect in a different manner from that which is deemed acceptable for men. I would think it very strange if a conservative UK prime minister did not at least give that head bow to their monarch - especially this monarch - even today.

I'm not sure if I agree here. Just because there is a sex-based difference doesn't automatically mean that it's due to sexism.

Bowing was originally meant to be rather low. The torso bent, the head dropped, one leg was drawn back, an arm bent over the abdomen, the other extending out. The curtsey is actually a rather logical adaptation of the bow to accommodate skirts.

Men's bows evolved as relations between the upper/lower classes changed. Women's curtseys evolved differently to accommodate hooped skirts.

Personally, I'm not a fan of curtseys - not because they're somehow sexist (which i don't agree with), but because I don't think they work with modern fashion. Curtseys are designed for big, floor length, hoop skirts, not the shorter, tighter skirts more typically worn today.

Rustic Chivalry · #**2469** 07-18-2016, 08:50 PM

Hi! Apologies if this has already been addressed upthread (I'm still making my way through), but I saw a possibly sketchy article about the Duchess of Cambridge having to curtsy to princesses of the blood when the Duke of Cambridge isn't around. However, I've only ever seen her curtsy to the Queen and the Duke of Edinburgh.

I understand royal precedence academically, and I saw the example upthread of a Crown Princess consort curtsying to a Crown princess of the blood, but as a matter of practicality, I'm not sure I've ever seen two British royals at the "RH" level bow or curtsy to each other (other than the aforementioned exception for Philip). Are there any examples of this that I've missed?

Countessmeout · #**2470** 07-18-2016, 08:56 PM

HRH don't bow to each other. Kate has never bowed to her FIL and his wife, she certainly wouldn't bow to Beatrice. You bow out of respect to someone of a higher rank. That would be the queen or foreign sovereigns.

In private, when she is alone with the other woman, she is lower in precedence. But she wouldn't bow.

Darnius · #**2471** 08-13-2016, 12:25 AM

Fijian rugby players kneel for Princess Anne as she awards gold medal at Rio Olympics | Daily Mail Online

Curryong · #**2472** 08-13-2016, 12:59 AM

Charming and rather lovely.

Osipi · #**2473** 08-13-2016, 01:02 AM

I think so too. Quite different yet very meaningful to show respect for a person in the manner that they did.

HRHPrinceD.J.H.W.G · #**2474** 08-15-2016, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KatieLouise

I don't know if I've ever seen an American President bow to a monarch... if they do, does anyone have any pictures of this? :)

Yes Obama did bow to an Arab monarch. A very deep bow. He received lots of criticism as he didn't bow to HM Queen Elizabeth but did bow to an Arab ruler!

HRHPrinceD.J.H.W.G · #**2475** 08-15-2016, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Countessmeout

HRH don't bow to each other. Kate has never bowed to her FIL and his wife, she certainly wouldn't bow to Beatrice. You bow out of respect to someone of a higher rank. That would be the queen or foreign sovereigns.

In private, when she is alone with the other woman, she is lower in precedence. But she wouldn't bow.

There are times when she has to bow to 'blood royals' like Eugenie or Beatrice but not when she is with William, as 'Princess William' she outranks the blood princesses but not when alone! 😀

Moonmaiden23 · #**2476** 08-15-2016, 09:54 AM

President Obama bowed low to the Emperor of Japan and received lots of criticism as well.

It wasn't just to an "Arab ruler" that he got it wrong.

I think the guy is/was just confused about protocol, same as his predecessors Bush and Reagan, the latter who famously referred to Diana Princess of Wales as "Princess David" or something during his toast at a State dinner.

And Nancy Reagan boasted to the media about how she did not curtsey to the Queen and would never do it, but the wife of then- Ambassador Annenberg did it and was roundly criticized.

These people cannot win.

Dman · #**2477** 08-15-2016, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23

President Obama bowed low to the Emperor of Japan and received lots of criticism as well.

It wasn't just to an "Arab ruler" that he got it wrong.

I think the guy is/was just confused about protocol, same as his predecessors Bush and Reagan, the latter who famously referred to Diana Princess of Wales as "Princess David" or something during his toast at a State dinner.

And Nancy Reagan boasted to the media about how she did not curtsey to the Queen and would never do it, but the wife of then- Ambassador Annenberg did it and was roundly criticized.

These people cannot win.

He's not confused to protocol. The President do not bow, but show respect by nodding to people. The Queen does this too when meeting people.

Don't forget, Mrs. Kennedy and her daughter curtseyed to The Queen. It's about how one goes about showing respect to people.

AdmirerUS · #**2478** 08-15-2016, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dman

He's not confused to protocol. The President do not bow, but show respect by nodding to people. The Queen does this too when meeting people.

Don't forget, Mrs. Kennedy and her daughter curtseyed to The Queen. It's about how one goes about showing respect to people.

To me, I think this "the President does not bow" thing is very generational. My father was very strongly of the opinion that we Americans do not bow to others, now do we dip our flag. I know he had some long winded historical reason for this, which I do not remember.
I've always thought politeness and common sense should prevail. I understood the use of the embrace or snub in diplomatic circumstances.
And I find young Americans find face to face diplomatic nuance silly, though they understand the very delicate rules on online dissing and liking.

Moonmaiden23 · #**2479** 08-15-2016, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dman

He's not confused to protocol. The President do not bow, but show respect by nodding to people. The Queen does this too when meeting people.

Don't forget, Mrs. Kennedy and her daughter curtseyed to The Queen. It's about how one goes about showing respect to people.

Jacqueline Kennedy curtsied to HM and the Duke of Edinburgh AFTER the assassination of President Kennedy when she was considered a private citizen and no longer the wife of a Head of State. In fact when Prince Philip visited her privately right after JFK's funeral she curtsied to him and instructed 3 year old John Jr to bow. When the Chief of Protocol protested she told him " But Angie(Angier Biddle Duke)I am no longer the wife of a Head of State".

When she was First Lady John and Caroline were always instructed bow and curtsy to adults who visited the WH, Royal or not. It's just the way many upper class children were taught in those days.

But when she was First Lady? Nope. She didn't do it, ever.

HRHPrinceD.J.H.W.G · #**2480** 08-15-2016, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by COUNTESS

Outdated and unnecessary act. Ms. May is far more4 important to the government.

Technically Ms May isn't more important. She is very important and a great PM. However the Queen is the more powerful figure but delegates her power via prerogative.