Bowing and Curtseying


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:previous:It is the cardinals who are considered by some "princes" of the Church. But they are not monarchs. The only two bishops who are monarchs currently (and not even cardinals) are the Pope, who may be considered as the absolute monarch of Vatican City and the Bishop of Urgell, who is ex officio Co-Prince of Andorra.

Some bishops or even abbots and provosts (!) were immediate princes of the Holy Roman Empire, combining their ecclesiastical role with that of a ruler (holder) over (of) an Imperial fief. But they are not anymore. The Archbishops of Kraków, Poland, were also Dukes of Siewierz and were, at least nominally, independent in that capacity (meaning that they had no sovereign over them in right of Siewierz). The Duchy was formally not a part of the HRE nor the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

Some other high-ranking prelates also used princely titles, which corresponded to their offices or possessions, such as the Archbishops of Warmia (Ermland), who were designated as Princes-Bishops by the Emperor but were later subordinate to the Crown of Poland and thus did not held monarchical status or power. Some Church possessions were designated as principalities, with the corresponding office holders using princely titles but it does not mean they were monarchs over the lands.
 
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kbk said:
:previous: Bowing and curtseying is a gesture of greeting, a very traditional sign of respect by an individual for an individual. Today, mostly a matter of tradition. It is not a must as nobody is expected to do that anymore. It's up to you.
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Duc_et_Pair said:
A révérence or a bow is always optional and never an obligation.
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I sometimes curtsy to my piano/vocal teacher during recital prep, when I'm doing a complete run through during my lesson and she pretends she's the whole audience and applauds me when I'm done ("A little curtsy?" she cutely asked me in her girlish voice one time after I did one), although last year at the year-end recital I was feeling a little bit shy about curtsying to the entire audience, so on my way back to my seat I stopped in front of hers in the front row and just gave her a little dip (I was wearing a floor-length lightweight white summer dress); she smiled prettily back at me.
 
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Rudolph said:
PM Theresa May gives a curtsy to The Duke of Cambridge upon his arrival at today’s ceremony in France
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DkFFfBUXcAENqr3.jpg
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Curtsies looked 'elegant' when there was all that draping cloth so the woman looked like a descending and rising cloud. ;) But seeing those legs in a pretzel in today's clothing looks grotesque. Sorry. Does.
 
Lady Nimue said:
Curtsies looked 'elegant' when there was all that draping cloth so the woman looked like a descending and rising cloud. ;) But seeing those legs in a pretzel in today's clothing looks grotesque. Sorry. Does.
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Yes, curtsies do look better in a floor-length dress, but a knee-length one will do as long as it’s A-line.
 
Those curtsies in tight skirts...ugh.


LaRae
 
It needs to be changed: women need to be able to discharge their 'obligation' with a nod of the head, just like men. The curtsy is just too subservient imo. ;) Just the way it looks: grown women, intelligent and educated, powerful in their own right, doing that pretzel......no. JMO. The men get away with hardly being noticed doing the nod of their head.
 
Like many things, a curtsy looks bad if it is done poorly.

The Prime Minister's curtsy is a bit awkward (her legs too far apart) and perhaps unneedingly low.

Here is a photo of The Duchess of Cambridge curtsying to The King of The Belgians.

Even in day attire it looks quick, slight and elegant. She is looking him right in the eye - Not subservient at all IMHO.

w04bvl
 
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I have seldom seen a women in a short dress pull off a curtsey. Denmark's Crown Princess Mary has done a couple of curtseys that did not look awkward and noodle-y but it was because she wore a flared skirt that was long enough to cover her knees and top part of her calves.


Lady Nimue said:
It needs to be changed: women need to be able to discharge their 'obligation' with a nod of the head, just like men. The curtsy is just too subservient imo. ;) Just the way it looks: grown women, intelligent and educated, powerful in their own right, doing that pretzel......no. JMO. The men get away with hardly being noticed doing the nod of their head.
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I don't think that the curtsey should be abolished per se, but I do think that it's a good idea it became just as customary for women to bow as it is to curtsey.
 
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Queen Claude said:
I have seldom seen a women in a short dress pull off a curtsey. Denmark's Crown Princess Mary has done a couple of curtseys that did not look awkward and noodlie-ybut it was because she wore a flared skirt that was long enough to cover her knees and top part of her calves.




I don't think that the curtsey should be abolished per se, but I do think that it's a good idea it became just as customary for women to bow as it is to curtsey.
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I have a white A-line dress with a green, blue and purple floral pattern that goes to below my kneecaps and has a flared skirt; I’ve successfully curtsied in it.
 
sarahedwards2 said:
I have a white A-line dress with a green, blue and purple floral pattern that goes to below my kneecaps and has a flared skirt; I’ve successfully curtsied in it.
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To clarify, I do not mean the physical act of the curtsey, I am referring to the aesthetics. I doubt if the same woman curtsies differently in a long dress versus a short dress but the long dress covers more so you don't see awkward / noodle-y leg positioning.
 
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I always thought that the curtsey was established by men in order to give themselves a good look down a neckline or under a skirt. Surely women are entitled to show their respect with a nod of the head.
 
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Bryce said:
Like many things, a curtsy looks bad if it is done poorly.

The Prime Minister's curtsy is a bit awkward (her legs too far apart) and perhaps unneedingly low.

Here is a photo of The Duchess of Cambridge curtsying to The King of The Belgians.

Even in day attire it looks quick, slight and elegant. She is looking him right in the eye - Not subservient at all IMHO.
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But it is 'subservient' by definition, however 'elegantly' executed. :ermm: It's a couple of steps up from laying prostrate on the ground before the sovereign or conqueror, but the 'genuflection' or kneeling before another has very clear implications of who is superior/inferior. It's outmoded. As well as looking strange.

I say it's time to do away with it. ;) We all seem to automatically nod our heads to each other upon greeting, when taking hands to shake hands. It seems to be a natural gesture of acknowledgement of the other across cultures, whereas prostration, kneeling, curtsey, has a very definite archaic significance best left imo.
 
Lady Nimue said:
But it is 'subservient' by definition, however 'elegantly' executed. :ermm: It's a couple of steps up from laying prostrate on the ground before the sovereign or conqueror, but the 'genuflection' or kneeling before another has very clear implications of who is superior/inferior. It's outmoded. As well as looking strange.

I say it's time to do away with it. ;) We all seem to automatically nod our heads to each other upon greeting, when taking hands to shake hands. It seems to be a natural gesture of acknowledgement of the other across cultures, whereas prostration, kneeling, curtsey, has a very definite archaic significance best left imo.
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I agree it is subservient and I don’t like the idea of the elected head of the government bowing or curtsying to anyone really but certainly not to the second in line to the throne. If the Prime Minister feels the urge to drop into a curtesy I wish she would restrict it to the Monarch.

I’d be happy for the nod of the head that you suggest provided the Royal did it back to the person they were meeting.
 
A curtsy is in no way subservient by definition IMO. It is a gesture of respect. If people don't like it, simply don't do it! No member of the public is required to curtsy or bow to any royal.
 
VictoriaB said:
I agree it is subservient and I don’t like the idea of the elected head of the government bowing or curtsying to anyone really but certainly not to the second in line to the throne. If the Prime Minister feels the urge to drop into a curtesy I wish she would restrict it to the Monarch.

I’d be happy for the nod of the head that you suggest provided the Royal did it back to the person they were meeting.
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I believe that is what Prime Minister May was doing in France when she curtsied to William. William was there representing the Queen and was treated as such.

As has been said many times, no bow or curtsy is ever mandatory. People do what they're comfortable doing. All I know is that should I attempt any kind of a curtsy, I would end up kissing the floor right quick. :D
 
I don’t understand why folks make such a big deal about PM May curtsying to senior members of the royal family. Every Prime Minister most likely have done this.
 
Dman said:
I don’t understand why folks make such a big deal about PM May curtsying to senior members of the royal family. Every Prime Minister most likely have done this.
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Maybe they have but times move on and what was appropriate in the days of Queen Victoria is not necessarily appropriate now. Personally I find it demeaning (obviously Mrs May does not) and I wish the elected representatives of the people would not do it or at least the elected head of the government. IMHO Members of the Royal family deserve no more and no less respect than anyone else.
 
There is also a different perspective that we can put on it. In the US, its appropriate to remove one's hat, put one's hand over one's heart or salute when the flag is presented or the national anthem sung. (I used to think it was so cool that I wasn't like the masses and could use the Girl Scout hand signal over my heart. *No* one does a better flag ceremony than the Girl Scouts!)

I see it basically being the same with showing respect to the royal family with a bob or a curtsy. Its not the *people* so much that they're respecting but rather their Crown and their Monarchy which is the foundation of all things British.
 
Queen Claude said:
[....]


I don't think that the curtsey should be abolished per se, but I do think that it's a good idea it became just as customary for women to bow as it is to curtsey.
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It already is for ages and ages. A révérence or a bow is always an option and never a requirement. And when a lady wants to bow, it is perfectly fine. It already happens that ladies make a nod with the head. It is all okay with the royals.
 
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Another thing to keep in mind and this pertains to Theresa May and all of the other politicians that govern the UK and the Commonwealth nations.

The governmental system of the UK and the Commonwealth nations are referred to as "Her Majesty's Government". Although the monarch plays no role in the parliamentary procedures and is apolitical, it is the monarch's role to ask the Prime Minister to form a government and to sign all legislature.

The monarch is the personification of the Crown. Its bigger than any one person or political party and represents the whole. That deserves to be respected in whichever way a person sees fit.

At least that's how I see it.
 
Bow and curtsey isn't an obligation. You can do it to whoever you think they deserve and not do it to whoever you think they do not deserve, it's fine for the government to do so and it's also ok for them to not do so. (Let's say, IF one day UK has an anti monarchy PM *knocking on wood*, I don't expect he/she bows/curtsey to the monarch no matter in what ocassion) JMO

Also I don't think a curtsey or a curtsey with a nod is subservient and I just want to bring in the gif of Mette Marit's curtsey to QEII. Still the most elegant curtsey to me.

Being-a-royal: Photo

Also the curtsey from Lux Stephanie:
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/82753711878504463/

I think it's more “natural” to bow your head if you are doing a deep curtsey (like Mette Marit and Stephanie above). Sometimes I find it's quite odd if the ladies are looking at someone directly while doing a deep curtsey (e.g. the danish ladies, yet I do admire how deep their curtsies are).
 
W.Y.CII said:
Bow and curtsey isn't an obligation. You can do it to whoever you think they deserve and not do it to whoever you think they do not deserve, it's fine for the government to do so and it's also ok for them to not do so. (Let's say, IF one day UK has an anti monarchy PM *knocking on wood*, I don't expect he/she bows/curtsey to the monarch no matter in what ocassion) JMO

Also I don't think a curtsey or a curtsey with a nod is subservient and I just want to bring in the gif of Mette Marit's curtsey to QEII. Still the most elegant curtsey to me.

Being-a-royal: Photo

Also the curtsey from Lux Stephanie:
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/82753711878504463/

I think it's more “natural” to bow your head if you are doing a deep curtsey (like Mette Marit and Stephanie above). Sometimes I find it's quite odd if the ladies are looking at someone directly while doing a deep curtsey (e.g. the danish ladies, yet I do admire how deep their curtsies are).
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Mette-Marit wore a long gown. It is hard to make a poor curtsey wearing a floor length gown. It is hard to make a good curtsey wearing a skirt. Would we have seen Mette-Marit in a skirt, the effect was 50% less.
 
Duc_et_Pair said:
Mette-Marit wore a long gown. It is hard to make a poor curtsey wearing a floor length gown. It is hard to make a good curtsey wearing a skirt. Would we have seen Mette-Marit in a skirt, the effect was 50% less.
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Of course, the long gown is one of the factors makes it elegant (at least I can't think of a bad curtsey with long gown, I even kinda believe that Theresa May's curtsey in last page will not look that bad if she is wearing a gown :lol:). And my point is a curtsey with a nod is more “natural” and not that subservient in my eyes (that's why I also post Stephanie's). ;)
 
W.Y.CII said:
Of course, the long gown is one of the factors makes it elegant (at least I can't think of a bad curtsey with long gown, I even kinda believe that Theresa May's curtsey in last page will not look that bad if she is wearing a gown :lol:). And my point is a curtsey with a nod is more “natural” and not that subservient in my eyes (that's why I also post Stephanie's). ;)
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Oh there can be horrible curtseys with a long gown. Just watch arrivals for the birthyday party of CP Frederick. Many cringeworthy moments there. :whistling:
 
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