Bowing and Curtseying

[JR76]

Originally Posted by Darnius

Bernadette Chirac curtseys to Prince Moulay Rachid of Morocco's wife yesterday (video, 0:42)

What is international protocol regarding former presidents and their spouses? Had Mrs Chirac still been the First Lady of France she wouldn't have been expected to curtsey to the royal bride but what happens when her husband isn't in office anymore? Does she maintain her position as a First Lady socially or is she now just "plain" Mrs Chirac?


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[Darnius]

Princes Frederik & Joachim's nannies curtsey to Frederik IX's coffin (video, 3:00)

J.P.E. Hartmann Funeral March (Thorvaldsen) - Funeral of King Frederik IX - YouTube

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by JR76

What is international protocol regarding former presidents and their spouses? Had Mrs Chirac still been the First Lady of France she wouldn't have been expected to curtsey to the royal bride but what happens when her husband isn't in office anymore? Does she maintain her position as a First Lady socially or is she now just "plain" Mrs Chirac?


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Madame Bernadette Chirac is an aristocrat, being the daughter of an aristocrat father, Messire Jean-Louis Chodron de Courcel (barons) and of an aristocrat mother, Madame Marguerite de Brondeau d'Urtières (counts).

She is not the only Première Dame de France with aristocrat links. Her predecessor Madame Anne-Aymone Giscard d'Estaing is the daughter of an aristocrat father, Messire François Sauvage de Brantes (counts) and of an aristocrat mother, Aymone de Faucigny-Lucinge et Coligny (princes).

Even the previous president, Nicholas Sarkozy is an aristocrat: his official name is Nicolas Paul Stéphane Sarközy de Nagy-Bocsa (nobles of the Austrian-Hungarian monarchy). His father owned a castle and domains in Alattyán near Szolnok but the family were forced into exile by the Communists (after WWII).

Let us assume that there simply is some "old school manners" in these people and that is why they behave impeccably towards their guests...

M Sarkozy giving a handkiss to the First Lady, Mrs Michelle Obama: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_bQdghlHEwv...+hand+kiss.jpg

M Chirac giving a handkiss to Queen Sonja of Norway:
http://static.ibnlive.in.com/pix/sli...ses/kiss_2.jpg

The present President of my country is very, very unpopular. He really lacks any feeling a gentilhomme should have. Look how so much more poised the old-school greeting of Sarkozy or Chirac is on comparison with his "modern" way: http://www.dreuz.info/wp-content/upl...lande-nain.png

[Chubb Fuddler]

I had no idea Mr Holland was so short!

[maria-olivia]

M Sarkozy is giving a handkiss to Mrs GW Bush..... 15/15 !

[Rudolph]

Schoolchildren curtsey for the Duchess of Cambridge

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/...6920056552.jpg

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/...6920067533.jpg

[SLV]

That is just too cute!! :-D

[HereditaryPrincess]

The little girl who curtsied to the Duchess of Cambridge was adorable, and I was impressed by her curtsey.

I have a question – does one have to curtsey to the President of the United States? Say for example if Barack Obama was visiting a royal and was undertaking a royal engagement with the royals, would a member of the public be expected to curtsey to either him or Michele just like they would to the royals? I'm asking because he is a head of state too, though I haven't really seen any photos of members of the public curtseying to him or past Presidents. (From what I've seen, the President and First Lady don't usually undertake engagements with the royals during state or introductory visits, but I was just giving an example of a situation.)

[Lady Nimue]

Originally Posted by HereditaryPrincess

The little girl who curtsied to the Duchess of Cambridge was adorable, and I was impressed by her curtsey.

I have a question – does one have to curtsey to the President of the United States? Say for example if Barack Obama was visiting a royal and was undertaking a royal engagement with the royals, would a member of the public be expected to curtsey to either him or Michele just like they would to the royals? I'm asking because he is a head of state too, though I haven't really seen any photos of members of the public curtseying to him or past Presidents. (From what I've seen, the President and First Lady don't usually undertake engagements with the royals during state or introductory visits, but I was just giving an example of a situation.)

I would say absolutely not! Nor would I be pleased, as a US citizen, to see that happen. No curtsying, please!

[Moonmaiden23]

One would never curtsey to an elected American leader, never. And technically neither the US president or his wife is supposed to bow or curtsey to royalty. But Nancy Reagan defied protocol and did it anyway and so has President Obama.

Jacqueline Kennedy curtsied to the duke of Edinburgh when he visited her in the WH after JFK's funeral. When chief of protocol Angier Biddle Duke insisted that the wife of an American head of state does not curtsey to royalty she replied "Well, I am no longer the wife of an American head of state".

[CyrilVladisla]

In 2008 President Nicolas Sarkozy and his wife Carla met Queen Elizabeth and Prince Philip.
The French president's wife curtseyed delicately in front of the Queen.
The British press compared Carla to Jacqueline Kennedy.

[Moonmaiden23]

The present President of my country is very, very unpopular. He really lacks any feeling a gentilhomme should have. Look how so much more poised the old-school greeting of Sarkozy or Chirac is on comparison with his "modern" way: http://www.dreuz.info/wp-content/upl...lande-nain.png// quote

My God, forget for a moment how silly the French president looks in that photo and consider the poor women who have the "honor" of receiving his greeting!

Beyond unflattering.

[HereditaryPrincess]

Originally Posted by Lady Nimue

I would say absolutely not! Nor would I be pleased, as a US citizen, to see that happen. No curtsying, please!

Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23

One would never curtsey to an elected American leader, never. And technically neither the US president or his wife is supposed to bow or curtsey to royalty. But Nancy Reagan defied protocol and did it anyway and so has President Obama.

Jacqueline Kennedy curtsied to the duke of Edinburgh when he visited her in the WH after JFK's funeral. When chief of protocol Angier Biddle Duke insisted that the wife of an American head of state does not curtsey to royalty she replied "Well, I am no longer the wife of an American head of state".

Ah OK, thanks for the answers; I'm not American myself so am unaware of the protocols. I found it interesting that Presidents aren't supposed to curtsey to royalty. Why is that?

[Moonmaiden23]

After the break with England and the Revolutionary War I suppose the Founders wanted to emphasize that the new republic was to be set upon a strictly democratic and anti-monarchical foundation. No titles, no bowing, no vestiges of aristocracy whatsoever.

The new idea as set out by Thomas Jefferson and the others was that "all men are created equal". This of course was true in theory, not in practice.

But that is another very long, complicated and painful story.

[Lady Nimue]

Originally Posted by HereditaryPrincess

Ah OK, thanks for the answers; I'm not American myself so am unaware of the protocols. I found it interesting that Presidents aren't supposed to curtsey to royalty. Why is that?

Well, since all presidents to this point have been male it would be odd for them to curtsy. I could see a slight bow of the head as a courtesy, and in fact I think we all do that to some extent when we shake someone's hand on first greeting. It's almost a reflex. But to bow in the sense of paying homage or respect/deference to the royal, no, for the reasons Moonmaiden indicated.

However, the founding of this country was not necessarily with the intent by everyone to do away with monarchy . The 'Founding Fathers' (as we call those men who actually formed the constitution and the governing structure of the new nation) had long deliberations behind closed doors on those very, very hot July days (without A/C) about whether or not the nation should have a King. We know that Alexander Hamilton argued eloquently advocating monarchy. However, it was probably never really an option. The world was moving on from monarchy, as would be proven with the French Revolution, albeit with less rather than more success.

What is generally glossed over is the men of that time did believe in a 'higher class' of men. Alexander Hamilton, for one example, had experienced the brute force and power of mobs and was very much in favor of the idea of a legally supported 'upper class'. In the end, they wrote and designed the nation wiser than they believed and lived in their everyday lives. There were merely a handful that were working from a truly remarkable forward visioning.

[Moonmaiden23]

Brilliantly stated Lady Nimue-as usual. Thanks for the erudition and detail in your post that was lacking in mine!

[Lady Nimue]

Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23

Brilliantly stated Lady Nimue-as usual. Thanks for the erudition and detail in your post that was lacking in mine!

You are being kind, Moonmaiden. Thank you. But as with all history, it's up for debate. At the university level, in a Political Science course, I did one of my reports on Alexander Hamilton (and fell in love with the guy! ). I'm hardly an authority. There was a remarkable confluence of men at that juncture: John Adams, Benjamin Franklin, James Madison, Alexander Hamilton - I have my favorites. I'm not a fan of Thomas Jefferson, nor an un-fan - just neutral about him. Madison and Hamilton were more important imo. But this is wayyyy OT.

[Dman]

President Obama has bowed to The Queen before and people gave him some flack for it. I'm a born American and I would bow before Her Majesty and Prince Philip.

[Pranter]

American presidents are not supposed to bow to royalty. It's not our custom and they are equals to whatever monarch they are meeting with.

I am American and would have no reason to curtsey to 'royalty'.


LaRae

[MARG]

Originally Posted by Dman

President Obama has bowed to The Queen before and people gave him some flack for it. I'm a born American and I would bow before Her Majesty and Prince Philip.

I think it is quite common for people to both nod and shake hands when introduced to someone.

I am guessing that a Nod is the 21st Century version of a Bow and also gives rise to the phrase "nodding acquaintance".

But when it comes to Her Majesty and Prince Philip, well I guess the rules go out the window because of who she is, what she has done and the grace with which she greets her guests. I think they both have enormous personal charisma and when you meet them, as a politician, you see your own history. Even royals have been known to bow and curtsey to them.