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  #421  
Old 07-20-2019, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
I don't know about the private finances of the Bourbons, but some Spanish posters here on TRF have disputed the claim that the Spanish monarchy is actually the cheapest in Europe.



Apparently, there are several hidden costs ranging from maintenance of royal residences to security that are not explicitly included in the King's apanage as it is the case in other countries, so cross-country comparisons may be misleading. Perhaps some other members who are more knowledgeable about those matters could elaborate further.
Royal finances are always hard to compare, especially since most governments seem to prefer to hide the total costs by dividing it up and incorporating it in many other budgets, but my understanding is that the total cost of the Spanish royal family is actually one of the highest especially because of the high security costs. Not sure it's still as high as in the days of ETA but that was one of the main reasons for quite extreme security measures and therefore high security costs.
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  #422  
Old 07-20-2019, 09:01 AM
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I was surprised by the fortune of the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg, being the second richest in Europe.
I believe the British Royal Family has a greater fortune than this site has mentioned.
After all, the most "poor" is the Belgian Royal Family, according to this news.
I believe that the fortune of the Spanish Royal Family is over 17 million, but that will never be known.
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  #423  
Old 07-20-2019, 09:56 AM
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Where do the Spanish RF get this fortune? I believe they don't have various enterprises like the Monegasque or property holdings like the Liechtensteiners or Royal Dutch Shell like the Dutch RF?
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  #424  
Old 07-20-2019, 09:58 AM
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The Spanish royal finances are, IMO, one of the murkiest. Didn't Juan Carlos have a yacht paid for by businessmen?
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  #425  
Old 07-20-2019, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by tommy100 View Post
The Spanish royal finances are, IMO, one of the murkiest. Didn't Juan Carlos have a yacht paid for by businessmen?
We will never know. Not so long ago Don Juan Carlos was accused by some media to use Corinna zu Sayn as an instrument to hide 2 billion of his fortune. That statistic would put him to the top position so this sort of articles seems written with a big fat sucking thumb.
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  #426  
Old 07-20-2019, 01:59 PM
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We will never know. Not so long ago Don Juan Carlos was accused by some media to use Corinna zu Sayn as an instrument to hide 2 billion of his fortune. That statistic would put him to the top position so this sort of articles seems written with a big fat sucking thumb.

Two billion are not of great use if they can't be spent and are hidden where nobody can see it. Seriously though, that Corinna zu Sayn's two-billion claim looks completely implausible to me.


Ultimately the main reason why European monarchs (other than the sovereign princes of small countries) look poor in comparison to their Middle-Eastern or some Asian (e.g. Thai) counterparts is simply that most European countries have legally separated the Crown estate from the King's private estate.
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  #427  
Old 07-20-2019, 02:43 PM
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Yes, its interesting to note that even amongst the European royals the more transparent have much smaller estimated fortunes than the others. I suspect the reason the Lux's are ranked so highly is due in some part to unclearness over the seperation of the crown's assets and the family's own assets.
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  #428  
Old 07-20-2019, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by tommy100 View Post
The Spanish royal finances are, IMO, one of the murkiest. Didn't Juan Carlos have a yacht paid for by businessmen?
I'd imagine there will be an absolute fortune in the old Kings will.
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  #429  
Old 07-21-2019, 04:10 AM
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Originally Posted by tommy100 View Post
Yes, its interesting to note that even amongst the European royals the more transparent have much smaller estimated fortunes than the others. I suspect the reason the Lux's are ranked so highly is due in some part to unclearness over the seperation of the crown's assets and the family's own assets.
The high ranked position of the Luxembourg Nassaus do not correspondent with the sale of parts of the estate of the late Grand-Duchess Joséphine-Charlotte. Note also that, like in most all continental countries, Luxembourg has the Code Napoléon, which means that each child has a fair share in an inheritance.

The Nassaus "only" came in the Grand-Duchy in 1880 and first had to compensate the Orange-Nassaus for their Luxembourgian assets.

Grand-Duke Guillaume IV had six daughters:
- Grand-Duchess Marie-Adélaïde
- Grand-Duchess Charlotte
- Hilda, Fürstin zu Schwarzenberg
- Antonia, Kronprinzessin von Bayern
- Elizabeth, Prinzessin von Thurn und Taxis
- Sophie, Prinzessin von Sachsen

Grand-Duchess Charlotte had six children:
- Grand-Duke Jean
- Elizabeth, Herzogin von Hohenberg
- Marie-Adélaïde, Gräfin Henckel von Donnersmarck
- Marie-Gabrielle, Grevinde af Holstein-Ledreborg
- Prince Charles
- Alix, Princesse de Ligne

Grand-Duke Jean had five children:
- Marie-Astrid, Erzherzogin von Österreich-Lothringen
- Grand-Duke Henri
- Prince Jean
- Margaretha, Prinzessin von und zu Liechtenstein
- Prince Guillaume

Any logic calculation shows that eventual private wealth of this relatively young grand-ducal dynasty is extremely watered down now. This is confirmed by the juridical proceesings in the case Félix vs Tessy, in which we could read that Félix is essentially already eating away "his share" and that no "freefall" from a inheritance is to be expexted at all. (His father's eventual inheritence has to be shared by five, as well).

"Business Insider"? Let me have a good laugh!
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  #430  
Old 07-21-2019, 07:02 AM
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Louis vs Tessy
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  #431  
Old 07-21-2019, 07:04 AM
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So, wouldn't the smart move for the graand ducal family be to put a significant amount in a grand ducal foundation so some of it can be preserved for future generations?
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  #432  
Old 07-21-2019, 09:36 AM
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I think they are very rich, and probably much of the family fortune is not known from the great public. All that can be said is pure expectation.
It is true that the family is large, but probably "Business Insider" only calculated the fortune of the current Grand Duchy Family (the Grand Duke Henri's family) and not of his brothers.
From what is known the Grand Duke Henri has several investments about which little is known.
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  #433  
Old 07-21-2019, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
The high ranked position of the Luxembourg Nassaus do not correspondent with the sale of parts of the estate of the late Grand-Duchess Joséphine-Charlotte. Note also that, like in most all continental countries, Luxembourg has the Code Napoléon, which means that each child has a fair share in an inheritance.

[...]

Any logic calculation shows that eventual private wealth of this relatively young grand-ducal dynasty is extremely watered down now. This is confirmed by the juridical proceesings in the case Félix vs Tessy, in which we could read that Félix is essentially already eating away "his share" and that no "freefall" from a inheritance is to be expexted at all. (His father's eventual inheritence has to be shared by five, as well).

"Business Insider"? Let me have a good laugh!
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So, wouldn't the smart move for the graand ducal family be to put a significant amount in a grand ducal foundation so some of it can be preserved for future generations?
You're right, and as a matter of fact there is a family foundation (fideicomiss) whose inheritance is by primogeniture, not shared among heirs.

HRH Louis Prince of Luxembourg v HRH Tessy Princess of Luxembourg & Anor (Application for Financial Remedy) [2018] EWFC 77 (04 December 2018)
The fortune of the Grand Duke is defined in the Family Pact of 1783, as restated by the Grand Ducal Decree of 11 June 2012. The constitutional basis of the Restated Family Pact is set out in Art 3 of the Luxembourg Constitution of 17 October 1868, as construed in the Declaration of the Luxembourgish Prime Minister dated 25 July 2011. Professor Kinsch makes clear that pursuant to the aforesaid legal provisions, the Restated Family Pact distinguishes between different elements of a reigning Grand Duke's fortune. First, those elements comprised of the GroBherzogliches Fideicommisss (in German) or the fidéicommis grand-ducal (in French), which elements of the fortune are intended to be passed on to future Grand Dukes (what Mr Wildgen referred to in his oral evidence as the "old family money"). These elements are, broadly, analogous to the Crown Estate in the United Kingdom. Second, those elements of the fortune comprised of monies received by the Grand Duke from the State of Luxembourg. These elements are, broadly, analogous to the Civil List in the United Kingdom.
It is also worth remembering that before Grand Duke Henri revised the 1783 Nassau Family Pact in 2012, it stipulated that the personal assets of a prince of Nassau, or a wife of a prince of Nassau, would be accumulated into the Nassau family fortune once he or she died, unless bequeathed to a non family member.
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  #434  
Old 07-21-2019, 12:25 PM
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Prince Louis (and probably his brothers too) receives € 40,000 annually given by the Grand Dukes.
Do Princes Louis, Sébastien, and Alexandra already have a job?
Does Prince Felix still work in the vineyard of France that is owned by the Princess Claire family?
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  #435  
Old 07-21-2019, 01:31 PM
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And the fortunes of non-reigning royal families (Portugal, France, Romania, Serbia, Greece, Bulgaria, Austria, Russia, Germany, Italy, and Albania)?
I know some of these families will not be rich, but I'd like to know.
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  #436  
Old 07-21-2019, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Blog Real View Post
Prince Louis (and probably his brothers too) receives € 40,000 annually given by the Grand Dukes.
Do Princes Louis, Sébastien, and Alexandra already have a job?
Does Prince Felix still work in the vineyard of France that is owned by the Princess Claire family?
But Prince Louis is already draining his share, so to speak. In the lawsuit documents it became clear that Louis had to find a job indeed because he was eating away chunks of his father's fortune and is nearing a limit that he can not continue because he would start to live at the expense of his siblings. So this reveals that the alleged billions of wealth contributed to the Grand-Duke have to be taken with a pinch of salt.
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  #437  
Old 07-21-2019, 02:00 PM
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You're right, and as a matter of fact there is a family foundation (fideicomiss) whose inheritance is by primogeniture, not shared among heirs.

HRH Louis Prince of Luxembourg v HRH Tessy Princess of Luxembourg & Anor (Application for Financial Remedy) [2018] EWFC 77 (04 December 2018)
The fortune of the Grand Duke is defined in the Family Pact of 1783, as restated by the Grand Ducal Decree of 11 June 2012. The constitutional basis of the Restated Family Pact is set out in Art 3 of the Luxembourg Constitution of 17 October 1868, as construed in the Declaration of the Luxembourgish Prime Minister dated 25 July 2011. Professor Kinsch makes clear that pursuant to the aforesaid legal provisions, the Restated Family Pact distinguishes between different elements of a reigning Grand Duke's fortune. First, those elements comprised of the GroBherzogliches Fideicommisss (in German) or the fidéicommis grand-ducal (in French), which elements of the fortune are intended to be passed on to future Grand Dukes (what Mr Wildgen referred to in his oral evidence as the "old family money"). These elements are, broadly, analogous to the Crown Estate in the United Kingdom. Second, those elements of the fortune comprised of monies received by the Grand Duke from the State of Luxembourg. These elements are, broadly, analogous to the Civil List in the United Kingdom.
It is also worth remembering that before Grand Duke Henri revised the 1783 Nassau Family Pact in 2012, it stipulated that the personal assets of a prince of Nassau, or a wife of a prince of Nassau, would be accumulated into the Nassau family fortune once he or she died, unless bequeathed to a non family member.
Maybe the magazine is mixing up the Grand Duke’s private assets with the Crown Estate ( the fideicommiss) , which is understandable since there doesn’t seem to be a clear cut distinction between the two in Luxembourg . In fact, I am not sure if they can be even distinguished in practice.
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  #438  
Old 07-21-2019, 02:20 PM
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I suppose that is really hard to know because they are private citizens now and sometimes their assets are scattered across multiple countries. The conventional wisdom is , however, that most of those former ruling families are cash-strapped, except perhaps the Germans who seem to have managed their fortune wisely.
The West-German royals and nobles were lucky, as most families were able to make prudent arrangements with the new German states. The royal and noble families in the former DDR however and in old East Prussia (now Poland), the old Sudetenland (now Czech Republic) etc. were less lucky. Not only they had to endure WWII: the Soviet occupation and Communist rule ruïned most of these families. But fortunes can change. See Romania, where old properties were returned indeed.
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  #439  
Old 07-21-2019, 02:26 PM
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But Prince Louis is already draining his share, so to speak. In the lawsuit documents it became clear that Louis had to find a job indeed because he was eating away chunks of his father's fortune and is nearing a limit that he can not continue because he would start to live at the expense of his siblings. So this reveals that the alleged billions of wealth contributed to the Grand-Duke have to be taken with a pinch of salt.
That's not what I understood. He will already have had an advance of inheritance. But the 40,000 are not from the inheritance but rather a money the Grand Duke gives to his children every year. But when he gets a job, he must stop receiving that money.
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  #440  
Old 07-21-2019, 02:31 PM
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The West-German royals and nobles were lucky, as most families were able to make prudent arrangements with the new German states. The royal and noble families in the former DDR however and in old East Prussia (now Poland), the old Sudetenland (now Czech Republic) etc. were less lucky. Not only they had to endure WWII: the Soviet occupation and Communist rule ruïned most of these families. But fortunes can change. See Romania, were old properties were returned indeed.
A few like Woizlawa Reuss, some of the Wettins, the Mecklenburgs and I believe also one Schwarzburg descendant have gotten some properties back. Added to this we have the Preussen and Solms-Baruch lawsuits which I imagine could be followed by others if they're successful.
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