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  #41  
Old 06-30-2005, 11:33 AM
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When Victoria Eugenie converted to Catholicism upon her marriage to Alfonso XIII of Spain, many accuse her conversion as not being sincere.
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  #42  
Old 06-30-2005, 11:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frothy
I think it is utterly morally wrong to convert from anything to anything unless you believe in it. God's law is above man's. Whenever I hear of any conversion for the sake of marriage be it royal or other it saddens me greatly, it means the person truly believes in nothing. There was royal wedding in Jordan recently and the groom converted to Islam which I was sorry to hear.
I agree totally. A person's religion should be between the person and God. Conversion due to law or because of marriage is just an empty action that means nothing if the person isn't converting of their own will and spiritual well-being. It's a sad fact, though, that many people don't regard their religion as important enough to them that they can easily switch from one to another.
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  #43  
Old 12-28-2014, 08:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josefine View Post
what about royals from the past
Josephine of Leuchtenberg became the Crown Princess and eventually Queen Josefina of Sweden.
She was Roman Catholic.
Her husband, King Oscar I was Lutheran.
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  #44  
Old 12-29-2014, 04:33 AM
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There was a huge problem when in 1947, the Orthodox King Michael of Romania wanted to marry the Catholic Princess Anne of Bourbon-Parma. Anne didn't convert, the Pope didn't grant permission unless the children out of this marriage would become Catholics, which would have been impossible. The wedding proceeded as we know, but the bride's family didn't attend the wedding. Only years later, Michael and Anne were able to marry in a Catholic ceremony.
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  #45  
Old 12-29-2014, 05:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Arrjann View Post
There was a huge problem when in 1947, the Orthodox King Michael of Romania wanted to marry the Catholic Princess Anne of Bourbon-Parma. Anne didn't convert, the Pope didn't grant permission unless the children out of this marriage would become Catholics, which would have been impossible. The wedding proceeded as we know, but the bride's family didn't attend the wedding. Only years later, Michael and Anne were able to marry in a Catholic ceremony.

Queen Maxima is supposed to be Catholic, but she didn't marry in the Catholic church and her 3 children were baptized and are being raised in the Dutch Reformed (Protestant) church. According to TRF poster Duc et Pair, she is also often seen attending Protestant services at a local Wassenaar church. I wonder if she has converted to Protestantism.
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  #46  
Old 12-29-2014, 06:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Queen Maxima is supposed to be Catholic, but she didn't marry in the Catholic church and her 3 children were baptized and are being raised in the Dutch Reformed (Protestant) church. According to TRF poster Duc et Pair, she is also often seen attending Protestant services at a local Wassenaar church. I wonder if she has converted to Protestantism.

Although it's a private matter, I think it would have been made known in case Queen Máxima would have converted.
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  #47  
Old 12-29-2014, 08:29 AM
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Since there is no legal requirement for Maxima to convert to Protestantism, it is only logical that she would worship with her children and attend those services as required.

There are also occasions where she, as Queen, will attend a church service in an official capacity. We do not know that Maxima has ever even thought of converting, but somehow I doubt it.
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  #48  
Old 12-29-2014, 10:07 AM
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If in 20 years The Daughter of William And Catherine meets in falls in love with the son of the King of Bhutan while he is studying in Britain Does that mean she has to be a Buddhist? Or Lalla Khadija marries into the Belgians does she just stop being a Muslim and start going to mass? Far fetched, but what happens?
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  #49  
Old 12-29-2014, 12:14 PM
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During the Nuptial Masses of both Albert of Monaco in 2010 and HGD Guillaume of Luxembourg in 2012, I am almost certain that I saw Maxima receive communion. If she considered herself Protestant, I am not sure she would have done that. Given the circumstances she is in as Queen of the Protestant Netherlands, it makes sense that she would be discreetly continue to remain Catholic but would be seen publically to raise her children as Protestants, as she agreed to when she married W-A.
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  #50  
Old 12-29-2014, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by amaryllus View Post
Or Lalla Khadija marries into the Belgians does she just stop being a Muslim and start going to mass?
As Islamic scholars generally forbid Muslim women to marry non-Muslim men it's highly unlikely that it would ever happen. As for a person of Muslim faith to convert to another faith, that's considered a crime punishable with death, so the answer is that she can't leave her Muslim faith.

While a Muslim woman can't marry outside her faith, there are nothing that hinders a Muslim male to marry a non-Muslim woman. For more info: Interfaith marriage in Islam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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  #51  
Old 12-29-2014, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post
During the Nuptial Masses of both Albert of Monaco in 2010 and HGD Guillaume of Luxembourg in 2012, I am almost certain that I saw Maxima receive communion. If she considered herself Protestant, I am not sure she would have done that. Given the circumstances she is in as Queen of the Protestant Netherlands, it makes sense that she would be discreetly continue to remain Catholic but would be seen publically to raise her children as Protestants, as she agreed to when she married W-A.
Well, Queen Juliana (protestant) was known to attend communions later in her life.
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  #52  
Old 12-29-2014, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post
During the Nuptial Masses of both Albert of Monaco in 2010 and HGD Guillaume of Luxembourg in 2012, I am almost certain that I saw Maxima receive communion. If she considered herself Protestant, I am not sure she would have done that. Given the circumstances she is in as Queen of the Protestant Netherlands, it makes sense that she would be discreetly continue to remain Catholic but would be seen publically to raise her children as Protestants, as she agreed to when she married W-A.
There are more catholics than protestants in the Netherlands. Even the royal family is half catholic (princesses Irene and Christina and families).
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  #53  
Old 12-29-2014, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Magali View Post
There are more catholics than protestants in the Netherlands. Even the royal family is half catholic (princesses Irene and Christina and families).
Funnily enough that is correct, but the Netherlands still considers itself a protestant-christian country (if it considers itself religious at all) and certainly the dutch RF does so. Up until very recently a royal marrying a catholic envoked a lot of discussion..
The dutch RF certainly does not consider itself half-catholic..
(i'm a dutch catholic so the fact that there are more catholics officially amuses me a great deal :-) )
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  #54  
Old 12-29-2014, 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Frothy View Post
I think it is utterly morally wrong to convert from anything to anything unless you believe in it. God's law is above man's. Whenever I hear of any conversion for the sake of marriage be it royal or other it saddens me greatly, it means the person truly believes in nothing. There was royal wedding in Jordan recently and the groom converted to Islam which I was sorry to hear.
It seems very few have converted from one religion to another as a prerequisite of marriage into a royal family.

CP Mary merely changed "Denomination" within the Protestant faith. Princess Marie however did convert from Roman Catholicism to Protestant in the form of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Denmark, of whom the reigning monarch (her mother-in-law) is the supreme authority, but not the head.

As to whether Marie was a practicising member of the Roman Catholic Church or a nominal member, i.e. born but not raised in, is unknown. But, it is my experience that if a person is practising their faith it is nigh on impossible for them to convert unless they have a "personal revelation" upon which to base it.
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  #55  
Old 12-29-2014, 09:51 PM
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Originally Posted by SLV View Post
Well, Queen Juliana (protestant) was known to attend communions later in her life.
Did she receive the Catholic Eucharist or did she merely attend the Mass? There is a great difference. One does not "attend communions" btw.


[But, it is my experience that if a person is practising their faith it is nigh on impossible for them to convert unless they have a "personal revelation" upon which to base it]// quote


MARG, I agree 100%.


magali-I did not realize that Catholics outnumber Protestants in the Netherlands. Thanks-
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  #56  
Old 12-30-2014, 12:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post
Did she receive the Catholic Eucharist or did she merely attend the Mass? There is a great difference. One does not "attend communions" btw.
Lol, I guess I translated that a bit too literally from Dutch. But yes, apparently she would walk up to the front of the church with everyone else and receive the Eucharist (the round disc you eat representing the body of Christ, right?).
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  #57  
Old 12-30-2014, 01:54 AM
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Princess Juliana took communion at the wedding of her grandson Prince Maurits in 1998. It caused raised eyebrows in Protestant circles.

Mind you: Netherlands is definitely not entirely Protestant: the south ('below the big rivers') is traditionally Catholic.
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  #58  
Old 08-21-2022, 12:45 PM
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There have been a plethora of Catholic royals who made the requisite promises to their church in order to have a Catholic wedding ceremony, or to have their non-Catholic wedding recognized by the Catholic Church, but in the end have raised their children as non-Catholics. Recent examples include Queen Máxima of the Netherlands and Princess Michael of Kent.

The Catholic Church, according to its US marriage website, does not view keeping the promise about doing all one can to raise children Catholic as one of its criteria to declare a marriage valid or invalid. Moreover, since 1983, the requirement is not an absolute promise to raise the children Catholic, but merely a promise to "do all in his or her power", and it applies only to the Catholic spouse.

Quote:
Because of these challenges, the church requires the Catholic party to be faithful to his or her faith and to “make a sincere promise to do all in his or her power” to have their children baptized and raised in the Catholic faith. This provision of the 1983 Code of Canon Law is a change from the 1917 version, which required an absolute promise to have the children raised Catholic.

Likewise, the non-Catholic spouse is no longer required to promise to take an active role in raising the children in the Catholic faith, but instead “to be informed at an appropriate time of these promises which the Catholic party has to make, so that it is clear that the other party is truly aware of the promise and obligation of the Catholic party,” the code states. (See the 1983 [current] Code of Canon Law, canons 1124-1129 on “Mixed Marriages” for the full text.)

But suppose the non-Catholic party insists that the children will not be raised Catholic? The diocese can still grant permission for the marriage, as long as the Catholic party promises to do all he or she can to fulfill that promise, [...]
Concerning Catholic-Jewish marriages specifically, the Catholic Church (see article above) seems to accept that there is a strong likelihood of the children being raised Jewish:

Quote:
Traditionally, Jews consider any child of a Jewish woman to be Jewish. The question of what faith in which to raise children must be an ongoing topic of dialogue between the couple and during marriage preparation. “Attempting to raise a child simultaneously as both Jewish and Catholic … can only lead to violation of the integrity of both religious traditions,” the [United States Conference of Catholic Bishops] report said.

The Reform community in the UK, according to its website, seems to recognize "the child of a Jewish father raised exclusively as a Jew" as Jewish:

Quote:
In the area of status in Reform communities, the most important principle is that we seek to help those whose Jewish life and Jewish identity is strong to be included in our communities. As rabbis, we do so in the most appropriate ways possible, seeking to create the best possible journey into Jewish communal life that we can. In many cases, this means using existing models – as in the case of conversion for someone with no Jewish lineage. But we recognise that there will be cases where the mechanisms of 2000 years ago no longer suffice: such as the child of a Jewish father raised exclusively as a Jew (and sometimes without knowledge that there are any questions about status), or the child of two parents of the same sex where one is Jewish and one is not. In these cases, we need new mechanisms and processes to respond to the reality of modern Jews.
The more traditional or mainstream Jewish religious communities have a very different position, but - if I'm not mistaken - they do not dissuade Jewish men who have children with non-Jewish women from educating their children in the Jewish faith and traditions. The offspring simply will not be officially recognized as Jewish or qualified to fully participate in religious life until undergoing the process of conversion.


In any event, I'm not sure how much we can base our predictions on the policies of the religious authorities. Cultural and emotional considerations can weigh heavily on religious decisions as pointed out above, and most Christians and Jews do not observe all the standards of their religions.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Prinsara View Post
However, there are many perfectly legal and joyous wedding options they did not choose that would have raised far more questions about any potential children's religious futures.
Do you mean holding only the legally required civil wedding, or is there another alternative?
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  #59  
Old 08-21-2022, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
There have been a plethora of Catholic royals who made the requisite promises to their church in order to have a Catholic wedding ceremony, or to have their non-Catholic wedding recognized by the Catholic Church, but in the end have raised their children as non-Catholics. Recent examples include Queen Máxima of the Netherlands and Princess Michael of Kent.
Are you sure that Máxima ever made such promise? When she became engaged, it was made very clear to her and, I believe, to the public, that she would have a Protestant wedding and that the children of the marriage would be baptized in the Protestant church, and she accepted those conditions. It would be strange and, I would dare say, even dishonest on her part to promise to raise her children as Catholics when she knew a priori that it would be impossible to fulfill such promise.

Maybe the fact that she did not have a Catholic wedding makes her situation slightly different than Maria Laura's.

EDIT: I am not very familiar with Michael of Kent, but it appears that he and Marie Christine only had a civil wedding. They later received a blessing of their marriage in a Catholic ceremony (with special papal dispensation), but I don't think they were ever technically married in the Catholic Church. So I am not sure what kind of promises either Michael or Marie Christine had to make, if any at all.
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  #60  
Old 08-21-2022, 04:36 PM
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Máxima received dispensation from the Roman Catholic bishop of Rotterdam for her non-Catholic marriage. It was indeed clear from the start that the children would be baptized in the Dutch Reformed Church (later Protestant Church of the Netherlands).

See for example this article written at that time: https://web.archive.org/web/20140227...en/geloof.html
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