LHBTQ+ Royalty

[Marengo]

Originally Posted by lashinka2002

In this day and age you could get an anullment on those grounds but back then I guess that would have been scandolous. After he died Ella became a nun so she may have never had sexual relations.

It didn't stop Ducky from divorcing Ernst-Ludwig of Hessen-Darmtadt (although they had intercourse, he still was gay).

What about present day royalty? Isn't one of Alexander of Yougoslavia and Maria-Pia (who is now married to Prince Michel of Bourbon-Parma) sons gay, the one who is a jeweller? But these rumours stay rumours of course, an Austrian Archduke (brother of Sophie of Windisch-Graetz and grandson of Helena of Toerring-Jettenbach, sister of Marina of Kent and Olga of Greece) was supposed to be gay but recently married an Iraqi woman. It is interesting to note how the 3 greek sisters all 'produced' one or more (supposedly) gay grandson(s), with the gene theory etc.

[Warren]

Originally Posted by Marengo

Isn't one of Alexander of Yougoslavia and Maria-Pia (who is now married to Prince Michel of Bourbon-Parma) sons' gay?

So it's said.

..........................

As a general note to this thread, the "gayness" or otherwise of historical figures has been established either through what was known at the time, or through later research into private correspondence.

In regard to current Royal figures, no-one has been "outed" who hasn't already "outed" themselves.

Speculation and gossip has been noted as such.

Warren
Royal Forums superModerator

[Smilla]

Originally Posted by Toledo

She ate them? :p

I think gayness is a word that does not carry back with the same effect prior to gay rights in the 60's. In olden times men and women would get together and moved on with their other lives as husbands or wives.

So, there were not exactly gay by today's standards and labels, just people who loved a varied menu.

That's a great way of putting it! :-)
I think that's one of the good points of this thread, that we are forced to rethink our standards a bit - what wasn't acceptable in the 1950s was readily tolerated some centuries earlier. What's regarded as "moral" behaviour changes - but then I suppose most people who post on this thread are aware of this.

[Mapple]

Originally Posted by Idriel

...
A complicated case this one. He was asexual actually. He did not have any lover (male or female) that I ever heard of and did never touch his wife (the stunningly beautiful Grand Princess Ella). Whether he was a tortured homosexual or simply was repulsed by sex, this is debatable.
Personally, I think he was gay but because of his bigotry, felt extremely guilty about it and shun all sexual desires.

Yes, it was common for homosexual people then. However, Grand Duke Sergey probably had several same-sex liaisons with young Army officers; such things were rumoured back then in Moscow.

[lashinka2002]

Originally Posted by Marengo

It didn't stop Ducky from divorcing Ernst-Ludwig of Hessen-Darmtadt (although they had intercourse, he still was gay).

What about present day royalty? Isn't one of Alexander of Yougoslavia and Maria-Pia (who is now married to Prince Michel of Bourbon-Parma) sons gay, the one who is a jeweller? But these rumours stay rumours of course, an Austrian Archduke (brother of Sophie of Windisch-Graetz and grandson of Helena of Toerring-Jettenbach, sister of Marina of Kent and Olga of Greece) was supposed to be gay but recently married an Iraqi woman. It is interesting to note how the 3 greek sisters all 'produced' one or more (supposedly) gay grandson(s), with the gene theory etc.

Right, but Ducky had to divorce wheras Ella would have probably been able to obtain an anullment because the marraige was not consumated and for other reasons etc...
Ducky caught Ernst in the act whereas Ella was virtually ignorant of Sergei's sexual orientation. This played a very large role in Ducky's decision to divorce. These were two very different women of character, Ella was a very quiet devout and religious woman and Ducky was more liberal for the times.
Following Ducky's divorce and subsequent marraige the 2 suffered from scandal were shunned socially, the actually had to leave Russia at the Tsar's request, this is why they survived the revolution....


Grand Duchess Olga Alexandovna (Tsar Nicholas' sister) married Prince Peter of Oldenburg. He was a known gambler and was "not interested in the ladies" They were married for 15 years and never had any sexual relations. Prince Peter only wanted to be married to the Tsar's sister. She eventually met Captain Kulikovsky and the 2 became lovers. Prince Peter knew but didn't care so long as nobody else found out. Olga eventually anulled her marraige with Prince Peter saying that the marraige was never consumated. She married her Captain in 1916. They had 2 children.


Marengo, your gene theroy is interesting. I always thought it was something to do with the hormones, I don't know if that can be genetic...

[Idriel]

Originally Posted by lashinka2002

Right, but Ducky had to divorce wheras Ella would have probably been able to obtain an anullment because the marraige was not consumated and for other reasons etc...
Ducky caught Ernst in the act whereas Ella was virtually ignorant of Sergei's sexual orientation. This played a very large role in Ducky's decision to divorce. These were two very different women of character, Ella was a very quiet devout and religious woman and Ducky was more liberal for the times.
Following Ducky's divorce and subsequent marraige the 2 suffered from scandal were shunned socially, the actually had to leave Russia at the Tsar's request, this is why they survived the revolution....

Ella was very deeply in love with Sergei. I think that's the only reason why she never left him. Also, she still had hope things would improve. You know how we are we woman, always believing we can change our men...:p . I'm not totally sure about the 'never mistreated her' part in your previous post. He was certainly a very cruel men (just see how he treated Jews), and ice-cool blooded. I have read that he would exercise some kind of mental torture on his wife, or something approaching. Still she was miserable when he died.
About Ducky, it was actually her husband's father who caught his son. AFAIK, only him was ostracized after that because of how cowardly he tried to blame things on his wife during the trial that ensued.

Marengo, your gene theroy is interesting. I always thought it was something to do with the hormones, I don't know if that can be genetic...

Again, I have to cringe. We are not animals, we are not driven by our hormones or genes only. People get attracted to other people for tons of reasons and a lot of heterosexual men have experimented with other men (same for women). Sexual attraction is more complex than that, IMO.

[lashinka2002]

Originally Posted by Idriel

Ella was very deeply in love with Sergei. I think that's the only reason why she never left him. Also, she still had hope things would improve. You know how we are we woman, always believing we can change our men...:p . I'm not totally sure about the 'never mistreated her' part in your previous post. He was certainly a very cruel men (just see how he treated Jews), and ice-cool blooded. I have read that he would exercise some kind of mental torture on his wife, or something approaching. Still she was miserable when he died.
About Ducky, it was actually her husband's father who caught his son. AFAIK, only him was ostracized after that because of how cowardly he tried to blame things on his wife during the trial that ensued.Again, I have to cringe. We are not animals, we are not driven by our hormones or genes only. People get attracted to other people for tons of reasons and a lot of heterosexual men have experimented with other men (same for women). Sexual attraction is more complex than that, IMO.

Interesting about Sergei and the cruelty towards Ella. From the book that I read (Alexandra & Elizabetha) it mentioned that he was a hard man that had to make hard decisions & that Ella may have experienced hurt and sorrow from his the lack of love and affection, but then of course who really knows. Ella was also very religious and divorce was completely out of the question for her. Funny in the biography that I read she wasn't at all prepared to marry Sergei and only accepted because that is what her family wanted. There was no love at first sight only a hope that love would eventually grow. You've given me some new interesting information.

About the genes, of course there are many other factors as to why people are attracted to one another no matter what the sex. I was talking about individuals who would only consider same sex partners and are repulsed by the thought of an opposite sex partner, I had thought that may be driven hormonally but I am not a doctor so I do not know and won't comment further since I'm sure this may turn into a sensitive topic.

[Margrethe II]

Persoanlly, I think the two most contributing factors to Homosexuality are gene & hormonal elements (which are obviously interelated anyway).

And, I myself could never imagine sleeping with a women.

"MII"

[Warren]

Since this thread has expanded in scope to cover a whole range of Royals (and other areas!), I have moved it out of the British Forums and into "Royal Chit Chat".

I have also renamed the thread Gay Royalty.

Warren
Royal Forums SuperModerator

[Margrethe II]

My!

We have progressed have'nt we? We even have our own thread dedicated to gay royalty in general. How the times are 'a' changing :p

"MII"

[BeatrixFan]

I think a major problem is that we're sex obssessed. You don't have to have sex to make you of a certain sexuality. For example, Kenneth Williams was celibate but he had a deep attraction to men and was homosexual.

[Smilla]

Originally Posted by BeatrixFan

I think a major problem is that we're sex obssessed. You don't have to have sex to make you of a certain sexuality. For example, Kenneth Williams was celibate but he had a deep attraction to men and was homosexual.

It's also that what we interpret as sex-related has changed - in the 18th century, emotionally kissing a same-sex friend was not necessarily regarded as a sex-related act, but just as a very emotional expression of affection.

[Warren]

Originally Posted by Margrethe II

My!
We have progressed have'nt we? We even have our own thread dedicated to gay royalty in general. How the times are 'a' changing :p "MII"

Yes, we are very progressive here at TRF, catering to all tastes and interests, with an occasional dash of discretion thrown in for good measure.

W

[violante]

Originally Posted by windsor the troll

If I'm not mistaken, there was a recent hate campaign against the Swedish Royals.
The King was accused of being homosexual as was his immediate family. It was the work of a hugely homophobic site connected to some extreme church.

I linked to the site out of interest and it was vulgar. Its hopefully the last time I will come across such an ill minded site.

Terrible. Must have been some fools writing this....It´s so completely ridiculous.

[Margrethe II]

Originally Posted by Warren

With an occasional dash of discretion thrown in for good measure.

W

But of course Warren

"MII"

[Marengo]

Originally Posted by violante

Terrible. Must have been some fools writing this....It´s so completely ridiculous.

it was an american vicar who hates sweden for some strange reason. I think he even has a website stating how nice it was that so many swedish people died in the tsunami and how that was Gods punishment for them being gay. It is utterly discusting and I do not understand why the americans don't do anything about it, like sending him to a mental institution.

[Skydragon]

What an interesting thread.:)
I have gay friends, 'straight' friends and some I don't know and have never asked their preference but, we all agree that the UK, at the moment would not accept William if he was openly gay.
This country is finding it hard to accept gay men and women at all, if you think about it, they are struggling to accept the idea of 2 divorcees on the throne.

[Lady Marmalade]

Originally Posted by Marengo

it was an american vicar who hates sweden for some strange reason. I think he even has a website stating how nice it was that so many swedish people died in the tsunami and how that was Gods punishment for them being gay. It is utterly discusting and I do not understand why the americans don't do anything about it, like sending him to a mental institution.

I know who you are talking about and the man is not popular in our country. But we do not send a person to a mental institution unless they are proved to be certifiably insane by doctors.

Freedom of speech in the United States has a broad spectrum of definition and even the most ignorant people like him have their say just like the rest of us.

[norwegianne]

Ahem, can we get back to the Royals, please?

[Mippy O]

Since the Church of England has long been associated with British Royalty, it might be a problem there. Other countries, probably not so much of a problem. Let's face it, royals have been and done many things lately, that were formerly unthinkable, that most people wouldn't even care.