King/Grand Duke Willem III (1817-1890) Queen Sophie (1818-1877) and sons

[lucien]

Were Sophie's doctors really superior or was it her usual snobbery towards the Dutch (combined with immense grief of course)?

Was it traditional for parents not to attend their own childs funeral? Or just for royal parents? I never heard of that before.
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Thanks for the most informative reply btw.

Queen Sophie never failed in the snobbery department,nor in melo-drama either,Willem III couldn't do any good in her eyes even if he tryed,which he did at times.Hard to say now if her doctors were all that superior really.As there was no cure,at that time,for meningitis the boy would have died still I'm afraid.

No it wasn't a tradition for the parents not to attend their own child's funeral in general,but at the Court of that time it apparently was,
in poor Maurits case anyway.Awfull & unthinkeble now.

Allthough,two decades later,on may 17th 1872,she didn't attend the funeral of her sister-in-law Princess Amalia (42),wife of Hendrik,either,even tho she was very fond of her.

 

[Marengo]

I never knew she was fond of Amalia. She had little love for Amalia's husband Hendrik (or any of her in-laws). But didn't Hendrik and Amalia spend most of their time in luxembourg where he acted as a sort of viceroy?

 

[lucien]

I never knew she was fond of Amalia. She had little love for Amalia's husband Hendrik (or any of her in-laws). But didn't Hendrik and Amalia spend most of their time in luxembourg where he acted as a sort of viceroy?

Little love indeed.She detested Hendrik as much as she did his mother,lewd,scheming and the epithome of "evil" in her eyes.But she might have feld sympathy towards Amalia as she mentions her,not unfavorably,several times,but maybe just out of pitty.

Yes,they were in Luxembourg most of the time,Hendrik ruled it on behalve of his brother the King,the Grand Duke,as you know,and apparently did a good job at that.

Oh and she really couldn't stand Sophie Grand Duchess of Sachsen Weimar,her-sister-in-law,"a little fat propje trying to imitate her mothers manners in a most rediculous way,and the stench from her mouth was impossible,one couldn't stand to be near to her".....Nah,no love lost there either..

 

[Marengo]

I believe the only one she liked at times was Prince Frederik, and even about him she wrote some unpleasant comments.

Funny enough she also dispised her husbands aunt Marianne, while one would expect some symapthy from Sophie's part for a woman who had the courage to leave her husband.

 

[lucien]

I believe the only one she liked at times was Prince Frederik, and even about him she wrote some unpleasant comments.

Funny enough she also dispised her husbands aunt Marianne, while one would expect some symapthy from Sophie's part for a woman who had the courage to leave her husband.

There's more on that,as you might know.... on the Alexander Palace Forum,Benelux Royals thread,page 3.Feel free to use,Thijs wouldn't mind,now would he?

 

[Marengo]

More about what? The relationship between Queen Sophie and Prince Frederik? I could not find any information about it in the thread about Queen Sophie at Alexanderpalace.
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I actually don't know if he minds, he hasn't complained so far though

 

[lucien]

More about what? The relationship between Queen Sophie and Prince Frederik? I could not find any information about it in the thread about Queen Sophie at Alexanderpalace.
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I actually don't know if he minds, he hasn't complained so far though

Try the tread on Marianne,same page.

From what I gathered from books/documents,especially "Een vreemdeling in Den Haag",her letters to Lady Mallet reveal she admired him and considered him to be her only true friend within the dutch RF.

Marianne,Sophie destested her.Why?Envy perhaps for being so blunt to actually divorce without really giving a hoot what the very conservative,but oh so hypocrite,society of the time thought,while she feld she couldn't.Still,she kept a precious miniature in her possession of a beautifull Marianne,a bit contradictionary maybe,or maybe just a woman thing.... ,no pun intended.

Thijs,he's a sweetheart if there ever was one isn't he?Oh well,you know him better then I do,and next time you "hear" him,ask him to participate on the AP again..?!

 

[Marengo]

Well, we have that one covered here too, Lucien

 

[lucien]

Well, we have that one covered here too, Lucien

boefje,nice link to admirable Marianne,but not what I asked.....

 

[Marengo]

I was wondering if anything is known about Sophie and her relations to her own family? I don't recall that she was particulary close to her sister Marie of Neipperg or any of her half-sisters and stepmother. She adored her father and AFAIK hated her sister-in-law, Queen Olga Nicolaievna of Russia. Was Olga's only fault her Russian blood (Sophie disliked all her Russian relatives)?

 

[Marengo]

The opening of the television series 'Wij Alexander', about Prince Alexander. I forgot the plot but I remember a scene in the end where Wilhelmina and Juliana were burning a box that contained letters of the Prince. I believe this was based on a rumour. I also recall that there was a freule Roell who was an anarchist and that a doctor was treating a mental patient who said he was Alexander. What I remember best however were the scenes of Carine Crutzen as Queen Sophie, the best Dutch actress of her generation IMO.

 

[lucien]

A plaque at Willemstad,Curacao,Netherlands Antilles,in remembrance of abolishing slavery by HM King Willem III.
http://www.royalimages.nl/search.pp?keyword=koning willem iii

 

[Roberta]

Sophie of Wurttenberg - Names of Her Ladies in Waiting?

My great grandmother was reputedly a Lady in Waiting to Sophie of Wurttenberg sometime between 1870 and 1877. Is there a source available in which the names of her ladies in waiting might be listed? My great grandmother was French but in time married a Prussian, took the married name Schieck, and moved to Germany. In 1885, she and her children immigrated to the United States. There names were Paul(e) Schieck (F 1853), Joseph (M 1885), Marga (F 1882), Paula (F 1880), Ottelie (F 1880), Marie Teresa (F 1877). Any leads you might have for me would be most appreciated.

 

[lucien]

My great grandmother was reputedly a Lady in Waiting to Sophie of Wurttenberg sometime between 1870 and 1877. Is there a source available in which the names of her ladies in waiting might be listed? My great grandmother was French but in time married a Prussian, took the married name Schieck, and moved to Germany. In 1885, she and her children immigrated to the United States. There names were Paul(e) Schieck (F 1853), Joseph (M 1885), Marga (F 1882), Paula (F 1880), Ottelie (F 1880), Marie Teresa (F 1877). Any leads you might have for me would be most appreciated.

You have to do better then this.Best way is to find a good geneology site and look under your great grandmothers maiden name and then go from there.There are so many with a claim to this that and another thing,n'importe pas,we really couldn't go into.
There isn't all that much known of the Ladies in Waiting of Queen Sophie either.

 

[Kataryn]

There's a book with edited letters from Queen Sophie to Lady Malet, maybe you find a hint in there:

Sophie of Württemberg. A Stranger in The Hague: The Letters of Queen Sophie of the Netherlands to Lady Malet, 1842-1877. S.W. Jackson and Hella Haasse (eds.). Duke University Press. 1989.

 

[lucien]

There's a book with edited letters from Queen Sophie to Lady Malet, maybe you find a hint in there:

Sophie of Württemberg. A Stranger in The Hague: The Letters of Queen Sophie of the Netherlands to Lady Malet, 1842-1877. S.W. Jackson and Hella Haasse (eds.). Duke University Press. 1989.

Yes I know,Lady Malet was the wife of the British Ambassador and an equal blabbermouth as the Queen,
but not a Lady in Waiting to Queen Sophie.

 

[Kataryn]

Yes I know,Lady Malet was the wife of the British Ambassador and an equal blabbermouth as the Queen,
but not a Lady in Waiting to Queen Sophie.

There is a very old and noble German family "von Schieck" which have roots in Saxony, Baden and Wuerttemberg. As queen Sophie spent a lot of her time not in the Netherlands, but at home in Stuttgart, it could well be that a Frau von Schieck served as her lady-in-waiting and is mentioned in these letters.

 

[lucien]

There is a very old and noble German family "von Schieck" which have roots in Saxony, Baden and Wuerttemberg. As queen Sophie spent a lot of her time not in the Netherlands, but at home in Stuttgart, it could well be that a Frau von Schieck served as her lady-in-waiting and is mentioned in these letters.

Ladies-in-Waiting were appointed in & lived in The Netherlands.At home was The Hague.A mere Frau von this or that would not have been elevated to the ranks of Ladies-in-Waiting at Court.With all due respect,but she must have been of the lower aristocracy,if any.

 

[Kataryn]

Ladies-in-Waiting were appointed in & lived in The Netherlands.At home was The Hague.A mere Frau von this or that would not have been elevated to the ranks of Ladies-in-Waiting at Court.With all due respect,but she must have been of the lower aristocracy,if any.

Okay, several German sources about Sophie of Würrtemberg, queen of The Netherlands, say that because of the unhappiness of her marriage the queen spend a lot of her time with her parents and siblings in Stuttgart. Which was not so uncommon, just think of empress Elisabeth of Austria, who spend long months away from Vienna. Elisabeth, too, had a lady-in-waiting which was only of the lower aristocracy (Ida von Ferenczy) but was very close to her.

From a new biography, published in 2010:
In 1855 Sophie spend the whole summer and autumn in Stuttgart and on the estates of her family in Wuerttemberg. Meanwhile her father and husband worked out a contract which granted the queen, for whom divorce obviously was not an option, a judicial seperation from her husband. The contract was signed on 25. december 1955 by queen Sophie, Prince Frederick of Orange, the then minister of justice Donker Curtius and the private secretaries of king and queen. The contract stated that king and queen had to turn up together for official events but had seperate rooms at the palace of The Hague and in summer, when Sophie was in residence in Huis ten Bosch, the king did not come there but left her alone.

Each year she spent months in spring and autumn in Stuttgart, staying with her father and step-mother at the Neue Schloß (New Palace) where she was allowed to hold court as she liked.

All information about her is from the new biography by historian Sabine Thomson: "Goldene Bräute" (Golden Brides - Princesses of Wuerttemberg on European thrones), Silberburg Verlag, Tübingen, 2010.

The author writes that Sophie in the beginning had two ladies-in-waiting, Miss "von Pabst" and Miss "von Stirum", the first one she kept on after becoming queen and Miss von Pabst travelled with her a lot in her later years.

 

[lucien]

I am aware of her history,an unhappy life,partially inflickted upon her by herself.A highly intellectual but also highly manipulative concocting woman making it all to clear to her husband from the very beginning that she was superior to him in the grey cells area,and emphasizing that over and over.Not very wise when your counterpart is a very touchy and rather direct man as King Willem III was,to say the very least.

She might have the ladies you mention,the Limburg Stirum Lady was one with another connection.Mattie van Limburg Stirum was refused by King Willem III as a bride for his son the Crown Prince Willem,or Wiwill as he was called in the family,as it was rumored she might be the King's offspring out of wedlock...This refusal set about the moving to Paris of the Prince and refusal to return and to have any contact with his father.He didn't die well there and passed over in 1879.

I know the contract,and they lived seperately "happily after that" ,except for the constant whining of Sophie who elevated that to an artform on itself,as you can see in her correspondence with Lady Mallet fe.If there wasn't anything to nag about,she'd invent something,and when you do that long enough you're up believing it all yourself.Yes,she spend a lot of time in Württemberg in summer,but,she could go anywhere she wanted but still she had herself with her all the time,and you can't run from yourself.Over doing it over the top with her care of son Alexander,poor man,he was totally bezirk about his mother as a result and turned away from his father as the latter didn't think him to be much of a man he should be,a whimp.He wasn't,but was a desperately lonely fellow.After his mother died,he was overcome with grief and visited the Royal Family's cript at Delft over and over weaping over his mother's coffin.A drama avant le lettre.Tragic,all lives involved in the Royal Family at that time were rather tragic.

 

[Marc23]

The author writes that Sophie in the beginning had two ladies-in-waiting, Miss "von Pabst" and Miss "von Stirum", the first one she kept on after becoming queen and Miss von Pabst travelled with her a lot in her later years.

There is also a family in Netherlands "van Pabst"...they descended from the family of Edler von Pabst who originated from Dusseldorf area...

 

[theresa_225]

I read somewhere on the net that Sophie caught the eye of Royal Prince of the French. If anyone knows about it, can he/she post it?

 

[lucien]

I read somewhere on the net that Sophie caught the eye of Royal Prince of the French. If anyone knows about it, can he/she post it?

It didn't go further then the eye that dropped,just a symphathy.

She was however on very good terms with the Emperor Napoléon III and Empress Eugenie.

 

[Marengo]

From the new biography on king Willem III by Dr. van der Meulen it appears that Willem III wanted to renounce his rights so he could settle on the French countryside with his pregnant mistress, the opera singer Louise Rouvroy. When his father dies in 1849 he decides to accept the throne after all. What happens to Rouvroy and their child is unknown, though she did work as singer in Paris for a while.

Willem I en III hadden bastaarden - NOS Nieuws

The rumours that the king could not have been the father of Queen Wilhelmina due him having syphillis is untrue. The king never received any medication for venereal diseases. And he was even present at her birth, which was very exceptional for those days. The biographer emphasizes that esp. the last 10 years, áfter his marriage with Emma of Waldeck-Pyrmont, the king became more stable and more productive even.

 

[CyrilVladisla]

Prince Willem, the eldest son of King Willem III, did not marry Princess Alice of Great Britain. Did his parents have any other princesses in mind as a possible wife for Prince Willem? Was Prince Willem's brother, Prince Alexander ever engaged?

In Emperors, Kings & Queens, Sonya Newland wrote:

Despite the unrest of his predecessor's reign, William's constitutional rule seems to have earned the trust and respect of his parliament and his people.

This is indeed a powerful statement.
Not just Willem III but for any sovereign, if parliament and the people do not trust and respect him, how can the monarch reign successfully?
​

 

[Lee-Z]

Prince Willem, the eldest son of King Willem III, did not marry Princess Alice of Great Britain. Did his parents have any other princesses in mind as a possible wife for Prince Willem? Was Prince Willem's brother, Prince Alexander ever engaged?

For Willem also Maria daughter of the russian tsar Aleksandr II was considered but she turned him down (apparently Willem had quite a bad reputation).
Willem's brother Alexander was never engaged (he was considered sickly and of nervous disposition)

 

[Marengo]

To awnser one of my own questions earlier: Sophie's doctor was not superior to the Dutch one. He actually was the reason her son died. He misdiagnosed the illness of Maurits, saying it was nothing serious. King Willem III insisted on a 2nd opinion of the court doctor (after some urging of de Casembroot). By that time it was too late, and the boy died. The queen must have felt very guilty about it.

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I believe nobody expected Alexander to get married. He was too 'melancholic'. Thopugh elsewhere I have read that Thyra of Denmark was considered for both Alexander as for his father Willem III.

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About the Frederiks: Prince Frederik at one point was forbidden to visit Queen Sophie too often. King Willem III wanted to evade the impression that he was chosing her side. The ever-acid Queen Sophie in her letters to Lady Malet complained about the constant attention from her husbands uncle.

 

[Lee-Z]

In Emperors, Kings & Queens, Sonya Newland wrote:

Despite the unrest of his predecessor's reign, William's constitutional rule seems to have earned the trust and respect of his parliament and his people.

This is indeed a powerful statement.
Not just Willem III but for any sovereign, if parliament and the people do not trust and respect him, how can the monarch reign successfully?
​

Was he that respected? He was known as "King Gorilla" and had a difficulty adjusting to the role of King as it was at that time (more limited than it had been in earlier years).
He apparently quite was unpredictable, could be very bad-tempered and had a difficult relationship with his sons.

 

[An Ard Ri]

Sophie of Württemberg

The Fifteen Princesses of Orange: Sophie of Württemberg – Royal Central

 

[CyrilVladisla]

Portrait of Crown Prince William Alexander
http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-wi...crown-prince-of-the-netherlands-14501389.html