The Future of the Norwegian Monarchy

[iceflower]

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This thread is dedicated to discussions about the future of the Norwegian Monarchy.


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[Blog Real]

Good thing this topic was created, so we have a place to discuss the future of the Norwegian monarchy. I think the future of this monarchy is secured with Prince Haakon and Peincesa Ingrid Alexandra, who I am sure must already be prepared to assume royal duties as soon as necessary.

[Mbruno]

Originally Posted by Blog Real

Good thing this topic was created, so we have a place to discuss the future of the Norwegian monarchy. I think the future of this monarchy is secured with Prince Haakon and Peincesa Ingrid Alexandra, who I am sure must already be prepared to assume royal duties as soon as necessary.

It will be hard on Ingrid Alexandra because she will probably have to become a full-time royal at a very young age when she should be focusing on her education . She won't be the first royal to go through that situation , but she will have to learn very quickly and "on the job".

[Muhler]

And on a personal level it leaves her much less time to simply being young. - Dating, having fun, travel abroad and all the other things young royals have the opportunity to do.

Perhaps out resident Norwegians can answer this question: Is it expected of Ingrid to become an officer or at least become a conscript and do a stint of national service?
That I think will be a period where she will be surrounded by people her own age, most of the time and have few other obligations.

[Tatiana Maria]

Originally Posted by Mbruno

On a different comment, I also hope that Haakon eventually decides to draft his younger son as a working royal when he is old enough. It never made sense to me that he is not an HRH and, with such a small royal family, his help would be much appreciated.

Putting the decision in context, Prince Sverre Magnus was born three years after Princess Märtha Louise voluntarily resigned her royal position in favor of working as a businesswoman. It was thus to be expected that when Magnus was of an age to take on royal duties, the Norwegian public would have become accustomed over the past 20-25 years to having only one couple per generation performing royal duties full time.

Furthermore, the right to choose his future career was considered a "freedom" by the Royal Family, rather than a limitation. To quote Royal Norway's translation of the statement at that time:

The King's reason for not giving the new prince the title Royal Highness is because the Norwegian Royal House, since 1905, has traditionally consisted of few members, and the King wishes to continue this tradition.

"The King believes that this will also give the new prince greater freedom to choose his own future, e.g. by career choice," says information manager Astrid Versto of NTB.

https://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/...ke-tradisjoner

[Friedrich Karl II]

Norweigian monarchy is surely secured when it is quiet popular currently. But Ingrid Alexandra will have not easy on future. She is going get more duties already during this decade. Sverre Magnus of course has too some duties but IA will be quiet loaded with duties and surely some other things too. Hopefully it doesn't cause her such problems as what CP Victoria had.

[Hans-Rickard]

Yes Ingrid will definitely assume some significant duties much earlier than her equals but i think that is according to the plan too. I’m sure there is a plan already made in the family for her education.
Sverre Magnus has never been an H.R.H and has never been planned to become a full time working royal (though it wouldn’t hurt if he choosed to become one down the road) so the plan is clearly to have a much smaller Royal Family in the future.

There will undoubtly be a few years when the NRF can’t take on as many engagements as of today but that will be the case in Sweden, UK, Spain and Japan too.

The Queen of UK and The King of Sweden both came to the throne in their 20:s and they have both shown that it is possible to ”learning by doing”. Though QEII never recived a university education and Carl XVI Gustaf has said many times that he felt his higher education was rushed and incomplete due to the risk of his old grandfather becoming frail, and he would have to take over immediately.

[Muhler]

Alas, it won't be just a few years.

2025.
The worst case (but far from unlikely) scenario is this:
King Harald and Queen Sonia are either dead or too old and frail to be active royals.
Mette-Marit is either dead or unable to work.

That leaves Haakon - who apart from his extensive work, has two distraught children to comfort and look after, guide and tutor. Not to mention a seriously ill wife.

Ingrid is twenty, and already an experienced working royal. But she is about to start her higher education and for most of her twenties she can only work part time. But she also needs to live, to have a life and to date and fall in love and learn to have a relationship with all the ups and downs that entails. Or she would have to be extremely lucky with the one she eventually marry.

Sverre Magnus will be in his teens and whether he likes it or not, by the age of eighteen he will be drafted as a working royal. There will be no pursuing a career of his own away from the NRF for him. It's matter of necessity.
If anything happens to Haakon or Ingrid, he is all that is left!

So until Ingrid eventually marry someone, who can take some of the burden the NRF will be down to one full time working royal (Haakon) and two part time (Ingrid and Sverre) for perhaps another fifteen years.

What about Märtha Louise?
She is IMO the big joker. The death or Ari Behn and the added responsibility of taking care of their grieving children full time may change her. Mature her. Perhaps make her return to the NRF as a serious working royal - who is also acknowledged by the Norwegians as being serious.
Or she could join up with Durek and settle in USA.
Or just remain who she is now.
In both of the latter cases, she will be of no use to the NRF.

But her children? The oldest perhaps? She displayed a good deal of maturity at the funeral of her father. Could she be persuaded to take on jobs for the NRF in say ten years from now? Would she? Can she?

[Stefan]

But wasn't that similar to when King Olav became King? During his first years Priocness Astrid acted as fiorst Laday but then after she married she cscaled down. Did King Harald then already fuilltime duties at the age of 24 or was he still in his studies?. Only after he and Sonjky married it became again 3 fulltime working Royals. And in the first 10 years of King Harald's reign it was only the King and Queen who did fulltime duties as CP Haakon and Princess Märtha Louise was completting the studies etc. Only since the ma´rriage of Haakon and Metzte-.Marit there are 4 people doing royal dutries in Norway so many they never had before.

[Tatiana Maria]

Originally Posted by Hans-Rickard

Sverre Magnus has never been an H.R.H and has never been planned to become a full time working royal (though it wouldn’t hurt if he choosed to become one down the road) so the plan is clearly to have a much smaller Royal Family in the future.

The size of the working Royal Family won't be smaller.

The siblings of King Haakon VII belonged to the Royal House of Denmark, having no role in Norway.

King Olav V was an only child.

Of the siblings of the current King, Princess Ragnhild emigrated permanently to Brazil upon marrying, and Princess Astrid only took on a public role in order to replace Crown Princess Märtha after her premature death.

Princess Märtha Louise has been chiefly occupied with her professional career throughout most of her adult life.

As Astrid Versto said, a Royal House consisting of few members is the tradition.

[lucien]

Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria

The size of the working Royal Family won't be smaller.

The siblings of King Haakon VII belonged to the Royal House of Denmark, having no role in Norway.

King Olav V was an only child.

Of the siblings of the current King, Princess Ragnhild emigrated permanently to Brazil upon marrying, and Princess Astrid only took on a public role in order to replace Crown Princess Märtha after her premature death.

Princess Märtha Louise has been chiefly occupied with her professional career throughout most of her adult life.

As Astrid Versto said, a Royal House consisting of few members is the tradition.

And a few members is all a Monarchy needs!

[Hans-Rickard]

I’m sure there is an extensive plan already made for all eventualities. As written above, they have had the scenario before with 1 full time working royal (King Olav) and 2 part time working royals (Crown Prince Harald and Princess Astrid).
And in King Olav’s youth, it was just King Haakon and Queen Maud.

The situation was the same in Sweden from the death of Princess Sibylla in 1972 and especially from the death of King Gustaf VI Adolf in 1973. Then for 3 years it was 1 full time (King Carl XVI Gustaf) and 2 part time (Prince Bertil and Princess Christina)

As Märtha Louise relinquished her H.R.H status already when she married Ari and more or less left the (representing part of) the Royal Family even before Ingrid was born, i don’t see why the death of Ari would change anything in that way.
She will undoubtly have to be more in Norway to take care of her daughters as she is now their only parent. But that will likely be the only change.

The only reason i can imagine Märtha taking on a significant amount of royal duties again, would be on a time limited basis in an absolute emergency case with Harald, Sonja and Astrid all gone, M-M either gone or too ill, Ingrid and Magnus studying abroad and Haakon being alone at home.
She is Ingrid’s godmother so ofcourse she will help her brother and niece/goddaughter IF things comes down to an emergency case. But we are not there yet and we will hopefully never be.

[Tatiana Maria]

Originally Posted by Hans-Rickard

I’m sure there is an extensive plan already made for all eventualities. As written above, they have had the scenario before with 1 full time working royal (King Olav) and 2 part time working royals (Crown Prince Harald and Princess Astrid).
And in King Olav’s youth, it was just King Haakon and Queen Maud.

The situation was the same in Sweden from the death of Princess Sibylla in 1972 and especially from the death of King Gustaf VI Adolf in 1973. Then for 3 years it was 1 full time (King Carl XVI Gustaf) and 2 part time (Prince Bertil and Princess Christina)

As Märtha Louise relinquished her H.R.H status already when she married Ari and more or less left the (representing part of) the Royal Family even before Ingrid was born, i don’t see why the death of Ari would change anything in that way.
She will undoubtly have to be more in Norway to take care of her daughters as she is now their only parent. But that will likely be the only change.

The only reason i can imagine Märtha taking on a significant amount of royal duties again, would be on a time limited basis in an absolute emergency case with Harald, Sonja and Astrid all gone, M-M either gone or too ill, Ingrid and Magnus studying abroad and Haakon being alone at home.
She is Ingrid’s godmother so ofcourse she will help her brother and niece/goddaughter IF things comes down to an emergency case. But we are not there yet and we will hopefully never be.

I think you make good points. And given the longetivity of King Olav and his wife's relatives, as well as the present King's earnest work ethic, there may not be a significant gap between the oldest generation's departure and Princess Ingrid Alexandra assuming her full-time duties.

But her consort, unless she marries quite young or her mother's health unexpectedly improves, is likely to be required to step into a full-time role with little time for transition, and probably even, as Sonja did, assume the role of First Lady (Gentleman) immediately upon marriage.

[pkl]

Another scenario is that Norway becomes a republic.
We do not have a tradition of nobility. The monarchy has always been "slim". Most Norwegians love the monarchy, but it is expected that the monarchy is not pompous. Many think the Norwegian monarchy looks more like a republic than a real monarchy. We have a strong mentality like "do what you want to do", "marry who you want to", "live your life like you want to", equal rights etc. Maybe Ingrid Alexandra does not want to become Queen. Maybe she will call for a republic. Who knows.

[Mbruno]

Originally Posted by pkl

Another scenario is that Norway becomes a republic.
We do not have a tradition of nobility. The monarchy has always been "slim". Most Norwegians love the monarchy, but it is expected that the monarchy is not pompous. Many think the Norwegian monarchy looks more like a republic than a real monarchy. We have a strong mentality like "do what you want to do", "marry who you want to", "live your life like you want to", equal rights etc. Maybe Ingrid Alexandra does not want to become Queen. Maybe she will call for a republic. Who knows.

My understanding is that it is impossible for Norway to legally become a republic under the current constitution as the constitution does not allow a republican amendment. A constitutional convention would need to be called for a completely new constitution to be drafted.

[Blog Real]

Originally Posted by pkl

Another scenario is that Norway becomes a republic.
We do not have a tradition of nobility. The monarchy has always been "slim". Most Norwegians love the monarchy, but it is expected that the monarchy is not pompous. Many think the Norwegian monarchy looks more like a republic than a real monarchy. We have a strong mentality like "do what you want to do", "marry who you want to", "live your life like you want to", equal rights etc. Maybe Ingrid Alexandra does not want to become Queen. Maybe she will call for a republic. Who knows.

Why do you say that about Ingrid Alexandra? Ingrid Alexandra is being educated to be queen, so she will be queen one day.

[Denville]

Originally Posted by Blog Real

Why do you say that about Ingrid Alexandra? Ingrid Alexandra is being educated to be queen, so she will be queen one day.

Just because she's being educated to be queen doesn't mean she will become queen. She may hate the idea. She may want to marry soemone who isn't interested in living in Noway... Or the country may become a republic in years to come and she wont be queen.

[pkl]

Originally Posted by Blog Real

Why do you say that about Ingrid Alexandra? Ingrid Alexandra is being educated to be queen, so she will be queen one day.

Because, here in Norway, people in general think that if she WANT to become Queen, she will be queen. Even Crown Prince Haakon has said that his children can do what they want to, not what they are supposed to. If she does not want to become Queen, there are no problems to change the constitution etc... I hope of course she will become queen one day.

[Blog Real]

If Ingrid Alexandra doesn't want to. Sverre Magnus will become king.

[Mbruno]

Originally Posted by pkl

Because, here in Norway, people in general think that if she WANT to become Queen, she will be queen. Even Crown Prince Haakon has said that his children can do what they want to, not what they are supposed to. If she does not want to become Queen, there are no problems to change the constitution etc... I hope of course she will become queen one day.

I am not sure if she is able to renounce her place in the line of succession under the current constitution, but assuming she can legally do that, her brother will become king then. And, if the line of succession is extinct, the Norwegian parliament is required by the constitution to elect a new king.


As I said, the Norwegian constitution only allows constitutional amendments that do not contradict its basic principles. Since the monarchy is undoubtedly the most basic principle that underlies all the political organization of state, my undersanding is that a republican amendment is not allowed. In fact, Norway is the only kingdom in Europe where that is the case.


I suppose it could be possible for Norway to become a republic if the constitution was declared null and void and a constitutional convention was elected to draft a new constitution from scratch. That is an exceedingly complicated process.