The Future of the Norwegian Monarchy

[Denville]

But surely its possible that the constitution could be nullified and a republic one adopted. The Norwegian monarchy is very new, barely 100 years old and it is now working in a very different democratic age to what it was like when it was insitututed. There is no nobility and the country is not that attached to the ideas of formality and pageantry that surround say the British monarchy... So while it would be an undertaking, it would be possible to give it up...

[pkl]

Every year there is a voting in the Storting (Parliament) wether Norway should become a republic or not. More and more representants vote yes to republic.

[Denville]

If that is the case tehn I imagine that the necessary constitutional changes may be made in due course.

[Blog Real]

But in order to change the regime, do you have to hold a right referendum?
All surveys show that the monarchy is very popular.
I think there is no concern for Norway's monarchy.

[Muhler]

Even if Ingrid is not at all keen on the idea of being monarch one day, she will be under tremendous pressure to stay put!
Unless people overwhelmingly prefer Sverre instead, then it may be easier for her top opt out - but I don't see that scenario coming up for many years. Except in case Ingrid does something monumentally stupid.

Norway may be young as a nation in recent context, but it's very old as a country. And having been a monarchy since the beginning, although not always under a Norwegian king, it's not that easy to go in another direction.
But Norway is perhaps de facto rather a "hereditary republic"?

[pkl]

I read something about the norwegian monarchy is more like a "grey suit monarchy". So maybe it can be seen as more a "hereditary republic" in a way. But they also do have the pomp and circumstance thing like others some few times... I hope that we will have Haakon and Mette-Marit as King and Queen for many years when time comes (despite her health issues).

[Mbruno]

Originally Posted by Muhler

Even if Ingrid is not at all keen on the idea of being monarch one day, she will be under tremendous pressure to stay put!
Unless people overwhelmingly prefer Sverre instead, then it may be easier for her top opt out - but I don't see that scenario coming up for many years. Except in case Ingrid does something monumentally stupid.

Norway may be young as a nation in recent context, but it's very old as a country. And having been a monarchy since the beginning, although not always under a Norwegian king, it's not that easy to go in another direction.
But Norway is perhaps de facto rather a "hereditary republic"?

No, Norway is clearly a monarchy. The King has extensive nominal powers under the current constitution.



Sweden, on the other hand, now has a de facto republican government, which has little to do with the King, but keeps a hereditary Head of State ("the King or Queen who occupies the throne in accordance with the Act of Succession" as explained on Chapter 1, Art 5 of the Instrument of Government).

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by Blog Real

But in order to change the regime, do you have to hold a right referendum?
All surveys show that the monarchy is very popular.
I think there is no concern for Norway's monarchy.

Always make a difference in personal popularity and in popularity of a form of state. Often royals will score very high on personal popularity, likeability, etc.

But when the question is: do you prefer to chose a head of state yourself, or do you prefer a head of state by hereditary succession? Then the outcome is drastically different because this profound question is not connected to private persons.

See Romania. The late King Michael and his daughter Princess Margareta score high in polls on Romanians to admire and to like. But this is not translated into a wish to restore the monarchy.

I would not at all be surprised to see the monarchy go in my country (The Netherlands). While the approval ratings of WA and Máxima are sky high, the popularity of having a monarchy has a downward trend. Once again: try to disconnect personal popularity of a mega-star as Máxima with the simple question: "Do you like to elect your own head of state?" This fundamental question plays in all monarchies.

[victor1319]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

"Do you like to elect your own head of state?" This fundamental question plays in all monarchies.

Yeah, but in every question is a bit of framing too...

My question would be, with a bit more framing: Would you like to have an elected policial adventurer as head of state... or a nobleperson, which was brought up and educated for decades to represent your country?


Norway btw, did choose to be a monarchy (1905?).

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by victor1319

Yeah, but in every question is a bit of framing too...

My question would be, with a bit more framing: Would you like to have an elected policial adventurer as head of state... or a nobleperson, which was brought up and educated for decades to represent your country?


Norway btw, did choose to be a monarchy (1905?).

How "noble" will future generations still be, when nobility plays no any role anymore?
Ergo: if nobility is totally irrelevant, why then not choose our own favoured commoner to become head of state?

With this demonstrating that "democratization" and "hereditary monarchy" are essential antipodes.

[Somebody]

Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria

I think you make good points. And given the longetivity of King Olav and his wife's relatives, as well as the present King's earnest work ethic, there may not be a significant gap between the oldest generation's departure and Princess Ingrid Alexandra assuming her full-time duties.

But her consort, unless she marries quite young or her mother's health unexpectedly improves, is likely to be required to step into a full-time role with little time for transition, and probably even, as Sonja did, assume the role of First Lady (Gentleman) immediately upon marriage.

I don't really see how Ingrid-Alexandra's husband is supposed to assume the role of First Lady/Gentleman. In Sonja's case she took over as the 'leading woman' at court from her sister-in-law Astrid in support of king Olav (the 'leading man' at court). In Ingrid-Alexandra's case, she herself would be the leading woman if her mother is not able to take that spot once her father becomes king (and her grandmother is no longer active either). So her husband would the 'second gentleman' behind king Haakon but not the first.

Originally Posted by pkl

Another scenario is that Norway becomes a republic.
We do not have a tradition of nobility. The monarchy has always been "slim". Most Norwegians love the monarchy, but it is expected that the monarchy is not pompous. Many think the Norwegian monarchy looks more like a republic than a real monarchy. We have a strong mentality like "do what you want to do", "marry who you want to", "live your life like you want to", equal rights etc. Maybe Ingrid Alexandra does not want to become Queen. Maybe she will call for a republic. Who knows.

The way Ingrid Alexandra presented herself at her confirmation to me showed that she is very well aware of the responsibility on her shoulders and willing to take it on. Of course, she might have doubts at times but she seems prepared to one day become the crown princess and later on a reigning queen.

[victor1319]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

How "noble" will future generations still be, when nobility plays no any role anymore?
Ergo: if nobility is totally irrelevant, why then not choose our own favoured commoner to become head of state?

For the nobility time will tell. At least we have 'til then the Royal Forums...

And nobility is - at least for me - important.

Ok, not every royal family has a "timeline" going back to some Gods, like the Danish one, of which the folks in the viking age thought, it would be going back to Odin. Or Japan: right back to the sun Goddess, if I remember this correctly.

But a bit of national history embodied by the royal family - That is a good thing!

The Norwegians did choose their King among a group of more or less danish noblemen - That is good enough for me!

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by victor1319

For the nobility time will tell. At least we have 'til then the Royal Forums...

And nobility is - at least for me - important.

Ok, not every royal family has a "timeline" going back to some Gods, like the Danish one, of which the folks in the viking age thought, it would be going back to Odin. Or Japan: right back to the sun Goddess, if I remember this correctly.

But a bit of national history embodied by the royal family - That is a good thing!

The Norwegians did choose their King among a group of more or less danish noblemen - That is good enough for me!

I prefer royal or noble unions too becauss they give fascinating links to a country's history and gives "something special". For an example, the future Grand-Duchess of Luxemboyrg, the Comtesse Stéphanie de Lannoy, from a family which owns Château d'Anvaing, with sixteen (!) De Lannoys as Knights of the Golden Fleece, or linking it to the Nassaus: the first spouse of Willem I of Nassau, Prince of Orange was daughter of a Comte d'Egmont and a Comtesse de Lannoy... It oozes centuries of history and that appeals to me.

But but but... to by far the most people this plays zero role. Probably Mette Marit is more popular than a most noble Komtesse Danneskiold-Samsøe as Crown Princess of Norway will ever be. Who knows?

[wartenberg7]

Originally Posted by Denville

Just because she's being educated to be queen doesn't mean she will become queen. She may hate the idea. She may want to marry soemone who isn't interested in living in Noway... Or the country may become a republic in years to come and she wont be queen.

Different from Princes William and Harry, who even as children or adolescents have been reported to be not too fond of the idea being members of a royal family or even having to succeed one day, IA never gave any hint she would not like the institution. I was always impressed how self assured and comfortable she looked whenever she did her first royal "engagements", be it as "hostess" of the Duke and Dchss of Cambridge at her sculpture park, at launching ships together with her grandfather and her father or at her confirmation during her speech. I think her parents gave her great confidence and as a result she seems to be fine with her destiny so far.

I remember that little anecdote when she and the CP appeared in a pre christmas television show at norwegian television being asked what she would like to do later by one of the hostesses and Ingrid asking very firmly "I want to become Crown Princess!" I remember being pretty baffled by this answer as she could have said anything else!
Yes, she was a little girl back then. But there is no sign the Princess was struggeling with the prospect of becoming Queen one day so far - and until that might happen we have no reason to doubt she wouldn´t want to take on the role she was born for!
If she wants to marry someone who would not be interested in living in Norway, I guess she either would not marry that person or, for love, he would pretty sure understand he would need to if he wouldn´t want to lose Ingrid!
I guess Prince Henrik would also have prefered to stay in France instead of moving to Denmark, the same might go with the dutch Prince consorts or the D o Edinburgh surely prefering to stay abroad serving as an officer at the navy...

So, from my point of view all these discussions about if country x or country y could become republics in the near future is in vain and making-up sensation as no country seriously being in danger becoming one in a couple of years time comes to my mind.

[camelot23ca]

Originally Posted by wartenberg7

Different from Princes William and Harry, who even as children or adolescents have been reported to be not too fond of the idea being members of a royal family or even having to succeed one day, IA never gave any hint she would not like the institution. I was always impressed how self assured and comfortable she looked whenever she did her first royal "engagements", be it as "hostess" of the Duke and Dchss of Cambridge at her sculpture park, at launching ships together with her grandfather and her father or at her confirmation during her speech. I think her parents gave her great confidence and as a result she seems to be fine with her destiny so far.

I remember that little anecdote when she and the CP appeared in a pre christmas television show at norwegian television being asked what she would like to do later by one of the hostesses and Ingrid asking very firmly "I want to become Crown Princess!" I remember being pretty baffled by this answer as she could have said anything else!
Yes, she was a little girl back then. But there is no sign the Princess was struggeling with the prospect of becoming Queen one day so far - and until that might happen we have no reason to doubt she wouldn´t want to take on the role she was born for!
If she wants to marry someone who would not be interested in living in Norway, I guess she either would not marry that person or, for love, he would pretty sure understand he would need to if he wouldn´t want to lose Ingrid!
I guess Prince Henrik would also have prefered to stay in France instead of moving to Denmark, the same might go with the dutch Prince consorts or the D o Edinburgh surely prefering to stay abroad serving as an officer at the navy...

So, from my point of view all these discussions about if country x or country y could become republics in the near future is in vain and making-up sensation as no country seriously being in danger becoming one in a couple of years time comes to my mind.

I think Ingrid Alexandra has had the advantage of being appropriately exposed to her parents' professional royal life from very early on, and has always been been presented as an important part of the team. I doubt she can remember a time when the monarchy wasn't a big part of her life, not just in terms of her royal title, but in terms of first hand exposure to the day to day life of her future role. We all learn by doing, and the earlier we start, the easier things tend to be.

Given how complicated it would be for all these heirs/heiresses to give up their roles, it's better if they grow up having the positive sides of their positions emphasized to them, rather than being made to feel like a lamb being led to the slaughter. Maybe it's just her innate personality, but IA seems to be at ease with what's coming, and shows a nice mix of confidence and good humour that should hold her in good stead.

[Tatiana Maria]

Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria

But her consort, unless she marries quite young or her mother's health unexpectedly improves, is likely to be required to step into a full-time role with little time for transition, and probably even, as Sonja did, assume the role of First Lady (Gentleman) immediately upon marriage.

Originally Posted by Somebody

I don't really see how Ingrid-Alexandra's husband is supposed to assume the role of First Lady/Gentleman. In Sonja's case she took over as the 'leading woman' at court from her sister-in-law Astrid in support of king Olav (the 'leading man' at court). In Ingrid-Alexandra's case, she herself would be the leading woman if her mother is not able to take that spot once her father becomes king (and her grandmother is no longer active either). So her husband would the 'second gentleman' behind king Haakon but not the first.

I am working from the assumption that the representational roles will be guided more by the family members' positions than their genders, so that Princess Ingrid Alexandra's role would match that of the King or Crown Prince and her husband's role would match that of the Queen or Crown Princess. But there is no precedent, and my assumption certainly could prove incorrect.

In the order of precedence, the Crown Prince would of course be ahead of both the Princess and her husband, but I think it was the roles which were being discussed.

On a related note, Royal Norway, who is Norwegian and familiar with the history of the monarchy, once answered my question about predicting whether Prince Sverre Magnus and his future spouse and children would (since Magnus is male) be given a more prominent role than the Princesses and their husbands and children. I think the predictions are relevant to this discussion:

Originally Posted by ROYAL NORWAY

1. To receive state funding (apanage), he has to be a member of the Royal House. - So no, he won't.
2. Well, I think we must assume that he won't perform any royal duties at all. - Why?

Märtha: She carries out some few public duties on behalf of the King in areas concerning persons with disabilities. She is also active as patron of eight organisations, and as Chair of Princess Märtha Louise's Fund. - But as I wrote in post 579, she is (since her marriage) not a Royal Highness, her birthday are not an official flag day, she's not longer on the balcony on May 17th, she does not receive any apanage from the state, and she pays taxes.

Sverre: Unlike Märtha, he has never been a member of the Royal House, and is not likely to accept any patronages when he turns 18 (age of legal majority in Norway).

Originally Posted by ROYAL NORWAY

Would Sverre's wife [...] give up her career once she marries? No, she won't (I will actually go so far as to say that I'm 100% sure about that). - Why? Well, because that woman will marry a prince who is not a member of the Royal House, and he will most likely have a career of his own. Their alternative is to live of a trust-fund, but the NRF isn't that rich, so that would be quite difficult.
Would she perform public duties? No, she won't (I will say that I'm 100% sure about that too). - Why? Same as above.

[...]

Would their children have professional careers? Yes, they would (I will say that I'm 200% sure about that too). - Why? Well, they will need something to live of.
Would their children be offered patronages? No way (and I couldn't be more sure). - Why? Because (as the children of Ragnhild, Astrid, and Märtha) they won't have any titles, or official functions at all.

I would be interested if anybody else has thoughts or predictions on the matter.

[Eskimo]

Interesting topic about having enough working royals vs having too many working royals.

The King is frail, I have no idea how Sonja’s health is and of course MM’s a wildcard.

The worst case scenario is that the King, Queen and MM are either gone or unable to do duties within the next 5 years. This will leave only Haakon as a full time royal and IA may just have to became a full time royal and forgo higher education.

Of course if MM is gone, Haakon will have immense pressure to remarry ASAP so that his new wife can do duties, allowing IA a few years of part time work. Unfortunately, the obvious choice to step in, ML is too far gone to be of any help to her brother or Norway.

[Friedrich Karl II]

Originally Posted by Eskimo

Interesting topic about having enough working royals vs having too many working royals.

The King is frail, I have no idea how Sonja’s health is and of course MM’s a wildcard.

The worst case scenario is that the King, Queen and MM are either gone or unable to do duties within the next 5 years. This will leave only Haakon as a full time royal and IA may just have to became a full time royal and forgo higher education.

Of course if MM is gone, Haakon will have immense pressure to remarry ASAP so that his new wife can do duties, allowing IA a few years of part time work. Unfortunately, the obvious choice to step in, ML is too far gone to be of any help to her brother or Norway.

Norweigian Royalf Family has alwasys managed work with pretty small family. On early years of modern Norway king Haakon VII and queen Maud were long time only active royals on NRF. And even later the royal family had operate with very small family. So even if worst happen and Harald, Sonja and MM are all gone or otherwise unable commit their duties Haakon manage make make his duties. And Ingrid-Alexandra and Sverre-Magnus might give some help at some point altough education takes lot of time of their life on 2020's and early 2030's.


And even if Haakon re-marry them have still educate new queen. It takes some time. Yes, Daniel and Sofia became pretty quickly part of Swedish royal family but that still took some years. And searching of new wife and marriage is not fast operation.

[Princess_Eleanor]

Originally Posted by Eskimo

Interesting topic about having enough working royals vs having too many working royals.

The King is frail, I have no idea how Sonja’s health is and of course MM’s a wildcard.

The worst case scenario is that the King, Queen and MM are either gone or unable to do duties within the next 5 years. This will leave only Haakon as a full time royal and IA may just have to became a full time royal and forgo higher education.

Of course if MM is gone, Haakon will have immense pressure to remarry ASAP so that his new wife can do duties, allowing IA a few years of part time work. Unfortunately, the obvious choice to step in, ML is too far gone to be of any help to her brother or Norway.

I think Sonja's health is good - after all she is still hiking mountains and cross-country skiing, which is a whole lot more than most 83-year-olds can do.

I don't think anyone would want Ingrid Alexandra to forgo higher education. In the worst case scenario, she probably would have to do more appearances than otherwise, next to her studies. But there are also regular students who work next to their studies and Ingrid seems like a hard-working and dedicated girl, so part time royal work might be feasible.

I don't think her father or the Norwegian people would expect her to take on a full time role before she has completed university, though. In that case, Haakon would, though difficult, probably do the job by himself. There was also a time when Olav did almost everything by himself, with help from Astrid, who was also sick, and Harald, when he could next to his studies.

I agree it's unfortunate that the obvious choice, ML can't step in. Well, personally I believe she could but obviously doesn't want to.

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by Eskimo

Interesting topic about having enough working royals vs having too many working royals.

The King is frail, I have no idea how Sonja’s health is and of course MM’s a wildcard.

The worst case scenario is that the King, Queen and MM are either gone or unable to do duties within the next 5 years. This will leave only Haakon as a full time royal and IA may just have to became a full time royal and forgo higher education.

Of course if MM is gone, Haakon will have immense pressure to remarry ASAP so that his new wife can do duties, allowing IA a few years of part time work. Unfortunately, the obvious choice to step in, ML is too far gone to be of any help to her brother or Norway.

This is nothing new at for Norway. King Olav V was a widower for much of his life. When Prince Olav became King, his daughter Princess Ragnhild was already living in Brazil. His son, Prince Harald was still a cadet at he Military Academy. Back then the Norwegian Royal House was functioning with just two persons: the King and Princess Astrid.


This is similar to the Netherlands where between 1934 and 1937 the Royal House was two persons (Queen Wilhelmina and Princess Juliana), was three persons between 1937 and 1948 (Prince Bernhard joined the club) and was two persons again between 1948 and 1956 (Queen Juliana and Prince Bernhard).