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  #61  
Old 07-22-2019, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Stefan View Post
It is the same in Spain with the title Prince/Prccness of Asturias. But still the consort a Prince of Asturias is styled Princess of Asturias. We will see if this will also be the case for a male spouse but as also the husbands of spanish Ducghesses are styled Duke of Albva etc. i think it is very likely.
That is true. But during the readings of the Bill on the Royal House 2002 the Dutch Government preferred the title of King (Queen) to be used by the bearer of the Crown exclusively. They also preferred the title Prince (Princess) of Orange by the Heir(ess) exclusively.

Between 2002 and 2013 Máxima indeed never was The Princess of Orange, without any problem, completely following the Royal House Act. Why the Cabinet thought that Máxima not being known as Queen suddenly would be "undesirable" , is a mystery. In my opinion a missed chance on a clear and fair gender-equal system of titulature.
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  #62  
Old 07-22-2019, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by theroyalfly View Post
In English? Her Majesty Queen Máxima, Princess of the Netherlands, Princess of Orange-Nassau? This is interesting.

Can we legally address her as 'HM The Queen of the Netherlands?'

Compared with other reiging European Queen Consorts? Is it only Máxima that has this distinct case?
No, we cannot. Her official title in English is indeed HM Queen Máxima, Princess of the Netherlands, Princess of Orange-Nassau.

Likewise, Mathilde is HM Queen Mathilde ( Marie Christine Ghislaine comtesse d’Udekem d’Acoz), Princess of Belgium. She is not HM The Queen of the Belgians.

And Letizia is SM la Reina Doña Letizia (Ortiz Rocasolano) . She is not SM la Reina de España.

The only consorts that are officially “Queen of [xxx]” are Silvia and, I believe, Sonja. Silvia for example is HM Silvia Renate, Sveriges Drottning.

Domestically of course, one would only say HM The Queen, e.g, SM la Reine, SM la Reina,, HM de Koningin, HM Drottningen.
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  #63  
Old 10-07-2019, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by CyrilVladisla View Post
In 2002, with King Harald V's consent, Princess Martha Louise's title was changed from Her Royal Highness to Her Highness. Why was her title changed?
Her title was changed so that she could earn money by having her own company and earn money, without seemingly being at odds with being a royal. Unlike when her aunts' titles changed, ML's title changed before her marriage as it was (seemingly) a decision independent of that.

Of course, the Norwegian press failed to make that distinction, so in August this year, it was also announced that ML will not use her princess title for commercial gain.

Why they did not specify that back then, beats me, but I guess it was less controversial when she was profiting from fairy tales and writing books around that aspect than when she is going on tour with a shaman.
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  #64  
Old 05-23-2020, 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Princess Ragnhild and Princess Astrid are the only two titled royals who have ever been registered in the Folkeregisteret with a surname.

[...]

While "of Norway" is used for convenience when dealing with international audiences, my understanding is that the official title is merely Prince or Princess. This is as stated in the announcement of his title in 2005.
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Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
It doesn't specifically state anything about him being a prince of Norway or not;
As "of Norway" is not the prince's surname, I believe it would have to have been granted in the title in order to be legally registered. However, the King's announcement states "Jeg har gitt den nyfødte tittelen prins" ("I have given the newborn the title of prince"), not prince of Norway.



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Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
they also don't refer to Ingrid Alexandra or even the king or queen as 'of Norway' but as (HRH princess Ingrid Alexandra) and HM Queen Sonja.
Which "they" do you refer to? The website of the Royal House (kongehuset.no) does refer to Norges Konge and Norges Dronning, whereas the princes(ses) are referred to as Prins(esse) only.

For comparison, the princes(ses) of Sweden and Denmark are referred to as such on their websites.


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Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
So, while I understand that within the country it is irrelevant to mention the 'of Norway', do they really not have any designation? If so, on what basis are they using it internationally? What surname would be used at school?
In my opinion "of Norway" is the most logical and readily understood designation to use outside of the country; do you think differently?

I'm afraid I am not knowledgeable about how the royals are treated at school, although I believe Crown Prince Haakon once mentioned that he used his second given name Magnus when a surname was required. Perhaps someone else can answer the question?
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  #65  
Old 05-23-2020, 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
They probably need a 'solution' of Sverre Magnus eventual children as well. Or would they be prince(ss) of Norway (without royal highness of course, as he himself isn't one either)?
No one has confirmed what titles or surname an eventual child of Prince Sverre Magnus would carry. A title would be up to the monarch (see Article 34 of the Constitution), while a surname would probably be a mutual decision between the monarch and the parents, as it was with the Behn children.

Having said that, virtually all Norwegian royal watchers, in my experience, say they see no reason to treat Prince Sverre Magnus's children differently from his cousins, who have already established the precedent of being in the line of succession without a title or official function. I will quote Royal Norway's post here, as he is quite knowledgeable about the royal family:


Quote:
Originally Posted by ROYAL NORWAY View Post
Would Sverre's wife be a princess? That is up to the monarch, but I don't think so. - Why? Most Norwegians (politicians, commentators, experts and myself included) are VERY keen on gender equality, and the criticism will therefore be ENORMOUS if Sverre's wife became a princess, while Erling Lorentzen, Johan Martin Ferner & Ari Behn didn't become princes.
The headlines will be something like this: ''The spouses of male non-Royal House members receives titles, while the spouses of female non-Royal House members does not. - Gender equality anyone?''

Would she give up her career once she marries? No, she won't (I will actually go so far as to say that I'm 100% sure about that). - Why? Well, because that woman will marry a prince who is not a member of the Royal House, and he will most likely have a career of his own. Their alternative is to live of a trust-fund, but the NRF isn't that rich, so that would be quite difficult.
Would she perform public duties? No, she won't (I will say that I'm 100% sure about that too). - Why? Same as above.

Would their children be princesses/princes? No, they won't (I will say that I'm 200% sure about that). - Why? Because their parents would not be members of the Royal House, not that they had received any titles, anyway (this is not Denmark or Sweden).
Would their children have professional careers? Yes, they would (I will say that I'm 200% sure about that too). - Why? Well, they will need something to live of.
Would their children be offered patronages? No way (and I couldn't be more sure). - Why? Because (as the children of Ragnhild, Astrid, and Märtha) they won't have any titles, or official functions at all.
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  #66  
Old 05-23-2020, 07:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post


In my opinion "of Norway" is the most logical and readily understood designation to use outside of the country; do you think differently?
Certainly it makes the most sense when referring to HH Princess ML of Norway outside of the country when she's mentioned in the context of the royal family and her place in it.

But Martha Louise of Norway when she's not allowed to use or refer to her royal title and status for commercial ventures makes no sense. Hence the surname discussion. "Of Norway" clarifies which ML you're talking about but is basically a title.

OTOH if she started publicising herself as Martha Louise Glucksberg are even people from Scandinavia going to realise who it is without recognising the context? And people who don't royal watch from other countries will have no idea. That's why she's probably happy for companies and groups she works with to "mistakenly" use her title on their materials for a while.

It's that magic little word "Prince/ss" that brings the eyeballs and the cash and all the royals and royal-adjacent people trying to sell things know it.
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  #67  
Old 05-23-2020, 09:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
As "of Norway" is not the prince's surname, I believe it would have to have been granted in the title in order to be legally registered. However, the King's announcement states "Jeg har gitt den nyfødte tittelen prins" ("I have given the newborn the title of prince"), not prince of Norway.
My main question was, whether it was included for Ingrid-Alexandra, who unlike her brother is a royal highness (and I assume a princess of Norway - if they exist).

Quote:
Which "they" do you refer to? The website of the Royal House (kongehuset.no) does refer to Norges Konge and Norges Dronning, whereas the princes(ses) are referred to as Prins(esse) only.

For comparison, the princes(ses) of Sweden and Denmark are referred to as such on their websites.
The specific reference that you included and other ones on the same government website.

Quote:
In my opinion "of Norway" is the most logical and readily understood designation to use outside of the country; do you think differently?
I agree, unless they are officially no princes of Norway, than it is pretending to be something they are not. If they stress that some people are not princes/princesses of Norway, they shouldn't suddenly start pretending they are once out of the country. You cannot have it both ways.

Quote:
I'm afraid I am not knowledgeable about how the royals are treated at school, although I believe Crown Prince Haakon once mentioned that he used his second given name Magnus when a surname was required. Perhaps someone else can answer the question?
So the question on Sverre Magnus' surname remains unanswered; it would be very hard to pass on a non-existing surname to any children.
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  #68  
Old 05-23-2020, 09:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Heavs View Post
Certainly it makes the most sense when referring to HH Princess ML of Norway outside of the country when she's mentioned in the context of the royal family and her place in it.

But Martha Louise of Norway when she's not allowed to use or refer to her royal title and status for commercial ventures makes no sense. Hence the surname discussion. "Of Norway" clarifies which ML you're talking about but is basically a title.

OTOH if she started publicising herself as Martha Louise Glucksberg are even people from Scandinavia going to realise who it is without recognising the context? And people who don't royal watch from other countries will have no idea. That's why she's probably happy for companies and groups she works with to "mistakenly" use her title on their materials for a while.

It's that magic little word "Prince/ss" that brings the eyeballs and the cash and all the royals and royal-adjacent people trying to sell things know it.
I think you make good points, and that if King Harald or the future King Haakon ever did contemplate creating an eventual spouse or child of Sverre Magnus a prince/ss, the recent controversies may harden them against it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
My main question was, whether it was included for Ingrid-Alexandra, who unlike her brother is a royal highness (and I assume a princess of Norway - if they exist).
I assume the opposite, i.e. that she is titled Princess like her aunt and brother. As far as I can tell, the Royal Court's website does not refer to her as Norges Prinsesse or Prinsesse av Norge, whereas the king and queen are Norges Konge and Norges Dronning.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
I agree, unless they are officially no princes of Norway, than it is pretending to be something they are not. If they stress that some people are not princes/princesses of Norway, they shouldn't suddenly start pretending they are once out of the country. You cannot have it both ways.
I think the situation in Norway is very different from the one you characterize. It cannot be compared to monarchies such as Belgium and Luxembourg, where some princesses/princes in the royal family are "of Belgium/Luxembourg" whereas other princesses/princes are not. A Belgian/Luxembourgian princess/prince who is not "of Belgium/Luxembourg" but used the territorial designation would be pretending to a higher title than that which they are entitled to use.

In Norway, however, the princely title is the same for all princes(ses), apart from the crown prince and princess, and they are equally part of the Royal Family.

Likewise, royals in Japan (and in most monarchies outside of Europe, I would assume) do not bear the name of their country in their titles. Is it "pretending" when members of the Japanese imperial family refer to themselves as "of Japan" in English?


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Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
So the question on Sverre Magnus' surname remains unanswered; it would be very hard to pass on a non-existing surname to any children.
Princess Märtha Louise seems to agree:
One thing the couple have decided is that the baby's family name will be Behn, since, as the princess remarked "I don't have a surname."
However, since the naming law in Norway offers numerous options and does not limit children to the surnames of their parents, I don't see any legal bars to naming a prince/ss's child Glücksburg.
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  #69  
Old 05-24-2020, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
I think you make good points, and that if King Harald or the future King Haakon ever did contemplate creating an eventual spouse or child of Sverre Magnus a prince/ss, the recent controversies may harden them against it.
I don't expect they will; it would go against their current policy to keep the royal family as small as possible.

Quote:
I assume the opposite, i.e. that she is titled Princess like her aunt and brother. As far as I can tell, the Royal Court's website does not refer to her as Norges Prinsesse or Prinsesse av Norge, whereas the king and queen are Norges Konge and Norges Dronning.
However, the main difference is that Ingrid-Alexandra is a royal highness - as a member of the Norwegian royal house, while her aunt and brother are not.

Quote:
I think the situation in Norway is very different from the one you characterize. It cannot be compared to monarchies such as Belgium and Luxembourg, where some princesses/princes in the royal family are "of Belgium/Luxembourg" whereas other princesses/princes are not. A Belgian/Luxembourgian princess/prince who is not "of Belgium/Luxembourg" but used the territorial designation would be pretending to a higher title than that which they are entitled to use.

In Norway, however, the princely title is the same for all princes(ses), apart from the crown prince and princess, and they are equally part of the Royal Family.
I am not comparing it to any other situation in which you have different designations of princes/princesses, my main point is that you cannot just be a random prince/princess; otherwise we could all be princes and princesses (as Tessy likes to claim).

So, I guess we must assume they are all princes and princesses of Norway - even though they don't use it within the country; as in my view you cannot be a prince or princess of nothing (but I know we disagree on that).

Quote:
Likewise, royals in Japan (and in most monarchies outside of Europe, I would assume) do not bear the name of their country in their titles. Is it "pretending" when members of the Japanese imperial family refer to themselves as "of Japan" in English?
Yes, if they themselves do so. I am sure the press will do it for clarification purposes; but for example, Kako and Mako are 'of Akishino'.

Quote:
Princess Märtha Louise seems to agree:
One thing the couple have decided is that the baby's family name will be Behn, since, as the princess remarked "I don't have a surname."
However, since the naming law in Norway offers numerous options and does not limit children to the surnames of their parents, I don't see any legal bars to naming a prince/ss's child Glücksburg.
So far, the children in the royal family have all had their father's surname and/or titles, so it's interesting that Märtha Louise apparently considered giving them her surname had she had one.

It will be interesting to see whether Sverre Magnus would decide to use his wife's surname for any children they may have (of course, this also requires him to marry) - using his aunt's reasoning; or if they opt for Glücksburg; as that surely will bring more status as it stresses their royal heritage (which I think is reasonable given that these children will be male-line descendants and the eldest son would have been king one day had they not changed the rules).
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  #70  
Old 05-24-2020, 10:52 AM
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Is it not a custom in Norway for wives to (if they wish) take their husband's surname or for their children to use the father's surname?
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