Norway: Republic or monarchy?

[ricarda]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

From the start of the relationship with Mette-Marit Tjessem Høiby, the princely couple has always been under an extra magnifying glass and under extra scrutiny. They had to overcome controversy, scepticism and criticism. In the case of Mette-Marit we see -exactly like what happened and happens to Letizia Ortiz in Spain- that the media are constantly looking for the smallest hiccup to tackle.

My explanation for this phenomenon is the lack of distance towards the background of both ladies. They come very close to the common Norwegian or Spaniard. Then the reaction is: Who do you think you are? Sending your kids to posh schools? Shopping designer clothes and holidaying at our expenses? Girl, you think you are "royal" but you once served me a beer in Café Engebret in Oslo. It is the phenomenon of having your head chopped off when you raise too high from the "ranks" you once belonged to.

That is my personal conviction and explanation for the often overly critical attitude towards Mette-Marit (and Letizia). No offense intended. Any other theory for this somewhat picky behaviour towards Mette-Marit is good as it gets. Just speculation.

I don't think that the treatment of MM is in any way comparable to that of Letizia. Yes, MM had to go through a lot of heat before she married Haakon - but so did Maxima. And she was critizised now and then - but so was Mary. And she had the bad luck to have a father who fed the media with stories.
But IMO the Norwegian media never showed that over-critical attitude of the Spanish media. There were actually cases when I thought that the Norwegians are unusually understanding and un-critical (Can you imagine the Spanish couple going on a holiday for 2 month?)

All commoners who married into royal houses were under an extra magnifying glass and are more easily criticized than born royals. And I agree that this might have to do with the "lack of distance". But I think it also has to do with the sex ("Put the blame on Mame") and "media star" status (Why isn't Daniel critizised?, he is a Swede and a commoner)

[wartenberg7]

Yes, I also think there is a difference being made if criticism is targeted towards a man or a woman! Although CP Haakon always was and always will be my alltime favourite Royal I wonder why he was never criticised for anything concerning the crown princely family; the focus is always on MM!
I mean, who would really believe that the C Princess decided alone where the kids should attend school ?! Would anyone really believe Haakon had no say in the choice of this particular school ? I don´t think this was actually the case, but in theory he could have convinced his wife to choose this school, it was still she who got all the blame...

[ROYAL NORWAY]

More criticism of the Crown Prince, this time by the republican professor Trond Nordby. I'm getting worried about this. It's not just republicans who are increasing their criticism, but also supporters of the monarchy. Haakon and Mette-Marit should think about what they do and how it affects the monarchy. Martha and Ari should do the same.

Professor med skarp kritikk av kronprins Haakon - Kongehuset - VG

[Duc_et_Pair]

My fears, for which I have been slashed by some on this forum, has become true. The ongoing "popularization" of the monarchies generate short-term popularity but is in the long term eroding the core fundaments of what still is "royal". The lesser the royal families remain "royal", the necessary distance increasingly disappears. The more close the royals are, the more exposed they are.

Monarchies function best when there is some distance, the "shadow of the crown". Like in other monarchies the revered position has disappeared. With the entrance of the Haraldsens, the Behns, and the Tjessem Høibys it will become more and more difficult to defend that they are royal, that they deliver the head of state via hereditary succession. "If we want to see a common Norwegian on that palace balcony, we can elect him or her by ourselves, thank you". The fact that the Crown Prince married an unwed mother, that her son Marius Borg simply was added to the royal family and waves with the rest to the people sends a certain signal: "Wait... you do not need to maintain the highest standards, to lead a respectful life, you can still become Queen and your son from a fling with a certain Mr Borg can simply merge into the royal family?"

This is all pretty modern but "modern" and "monarchy" bite each other. When you love a monarchy, then you know you love an old, traditional and by nature conservative institute with iron rules and standards. By loosing all possible standards (Not royal or even aristocratic? No problem! Is an unwed mother? No problem! Her son can join the royal family? No problem!) the hidden message is delivered: it does not matter at all, any clown can become "royal" (Ari comes close).

This counts for all royal families anyway. When Ingrid-Alexandra marries a Norwegian gentleman, when Estelle married a Swedish dude, when Catharina-Amalia falls in love with that handsome Dutch horse trainer, then the little what is left from being "royal" will disappear more and more. It is the Grimaldisation of Europe's old royal families. I hope that the new generation will rediscover the value of preserving tradition and maintain standards and re-connect again to the national and European history by marrying "fitting" partners.

[ROYAL NORWAY]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

My fears, for which I have been slashed by some on this forum, has become true. The ongoing "popularization" of the monarchies generate short-term popularity but is in the long term eroding the core fundaments of what still is "royal". The lesser the royal families remain "royal", the necessary distance increasingly disappears. The more close the royals are, the more exposed they are.

Monarchies function best when there is some distance, the "shadow of the crown". Like in other monarchies the revered position has disappeared. With the entrance of the Haraldsens, the Behns, and the Tjessem Høibys it will become more and more difficult to defend that they are royal, that they deliver the head of state via hereditary succession. "If we want to see a common Norwegian on that palace balcony, we can elect him or her by ourselves, thank you". The fact that the Crown Prince married an unwed mother, that her son Marius Borg simply was added to the royal family and waves with the rest to the people sends a certain signal: "Wait... you do not need to maintain the highest standards, to lead a respectful life, you can still become Queen and your son from a fling with a certain Mr Borg can simply merge into the royal family?"

This is all pretty modern but "modern" and "monarchy" bite each other. When you love a monarchy, then you know you love an old, traditional and by nature conservative institute with iron rules and standards. By loosing all possible standards (Not royal or even aristocratic? No problem! Is an unwed mother? No problem! Her son can join the royal family? No problem!) the hidden message is delivered: it does not matter at all, any clown can become "royal" (Ari comes close).

This counts for all royal families anyway. When Ingrid-Alexandra marries a Norwegian gentleman, when Estelle married a Swedish dude, when Catharina-Amalia falls in love with that handsome Dutch horse trainer, then the little what is left from being "royal" will disappear more and more. It is the Grimaldisation of Europe's old royal families. I hope that the new generation will rediscover the value of preserving tradition and maintain standards and re-connect again to the national and European history by marrying "fitting" partners.

You are wrong, the criticism of Haakon and Mette-Marit has nothing to do with what you write in your post.

[Blog Real]

The monarchy in Norway is popular?

I think Haakon and Mette-Marit are doing a good job.

[wartenberg7]

I think the so called "popularization" of the monarchies do guarantee some extra popularity (also in the long run) and guarantee to keep the institution instead of the opposite! Especially countries like Norway do need accessible and very "down-to-earth" monarchies instead of out-of-touch and aloof ones! I believe reigns like Haakon VII or King Olav wouldn´t be acceptable these days anymore.
My feeling is that the family is very popular with the general public, as numbers of enthusiastic crowds show whenever the royal or the cp-couples turn up when touring the country. Criticism always seem to come from intellectual or political minorities! Of course not every "average" norwegian is a monarchist, but many many norwegians are very fond of the royal family!

And, Duc et Pair, the things you say about Marius Borg, a boy so fondly received with open arms both by the public as well as the royal family when he appeared on the scene ("...your son from a fling with a certain Mr Borg can simply merge into the royal family..."), is very rude! His life is just as precious and worthy as the one of a Elisabeth of Belgium, a George of Cambridge or a Christian of Denmark!!!

If that what you state was true, CPss Mary or Pr Daniel, for instance, were under similar criticism (not to speak of a Queen Máxima),too. What makes the (sometimes "scandalous") lifestyle or behaviour of a (nice guy) like Pr. Harry, for instance, more "royal" then the CPss of Norway?! Being born into a royal family doesn´t save you from being criticized (just think of of the former King of Spain or the heavy crisis Elizabeth II faced after the death of Diana Prcss of Wales)! The fulfillment of the public´s expectations is what counts today; if one fails here, one could cause almost the fall of the dynasty, no matter born royal or not!

Plus: This Nordby-guy is a republican.... So what would one expect?! People like him embrace every opportunity possible to attack the monarchy right away.

[Crown_Prinz_Oberon]

I don't hear any criticism of CP Haakon as a person, not nearly as much as I do his wife - i.e., she's lazy, she's greedy, she's shallow and materialistic...nothing about him. Save for the fact that he comes across as a bit whipped.

[ROYAL NORWAY]

Martin Kolberg snubs The King's parliamentary dinner.
VG sources: Dissatisfaction with the Crown Prince Couple's school priorities.
Martin Kolberg: - No, this is not a boikot.

Kolberg velger bort kongens fest - VG

[ROYAL NORWAY]

Fortsatt stor støtte til kongehuset blant folket - Aftenposten

1,001 people were asked the question: "Do you think Norway should remain a monarchy, or do you think Norway should be a republic?" 72% replied that Norway should remain a monarchy. 17 percent replied that Norway should introduce republic. 10 percent replied that they were not sure.

These are very good numbers. Most polls since 2000 have had support for the monarchy at 70%, with the exception of two polls which had the support at 65%. We also had a record poll that showed 82% support last year, but this was another poll done for NRK.

[eya]

Seven out of ten want the monarchy. Not just good, but indeed very good numbers. I was not expecting that perhaps after all those I read here mainly for the reactions that exist around the crown prince couple mainly as example for their summer vacation. Anyway it nevertheless seems that the idea of the monarchy remains strong. Well done.

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

It can change in one day, of course. No any King has ever had such an approval as King Juan Carlos in Spain but he had to leave via the back door. Never a President has been more welcomed and was more hailed as President Obama: even the Nobel Prize was awaiting him.... Now he has to work hard not to go into the history books as a failure. Everything is relative. Just one thing is needed to let the House of Cards tumbling down. See your own country, Greece.

Of course it is all relative. Any time something can happen and monarchies to collapse. Even in rich countries as for example in the Netherlands.

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by eya

Seven out of ten want the monarchy. Not just good, but indeed very good numbers. I was not expecting that perhaps after all those I read here mainly for the reactions that exist around the crown prince couple mainly as example for their summer vacation. Anyway it nevertheless seems that the idea of the monarchy remains strong. Well done.

It can change in one day, of course. No any King has ever had such an approval as King Juan Carlos in Spain but he had to leave via the back door. Never a President has been more welcomed and was more hailed as President Obama: even the Nobel Prize was awaiting him.... Now he has to work hard not to go into the history books as a failure. Everything is relative. Just one thing is needed to let the House of Cards tumbling down. See your own country, Greece.

[wyevale]

^ Thankyou Cassandra...^

[wartenberg7]

I think the last 20 years (Britain, Spain or Sweden) or so have shown that it isn´t THAT easy to make a monarchy fall; a lot has to happen before!
In Greece the signs of deep trouble existed for many years before 1967 and 1974 - it didn´t collapse so suddenly by any means!

The current european monarchies we have today, regardless of any troubles appearing from now and then, will be existing for many further decades to come.

[ROYAL NORWAY]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

It can change in one day, of course. No any King has ever had such an approval as King Juan Carlos in Spain but he had to leave via the back door. Never a President has been more welcomed and was more hailed as President Obama: even the Nobel Prize was awaiting him.... Now he has to work hard not to go into the history books as a failure. Everything is relative. Just one thing is needed to let the House of Cards tumbling down. See your own country, Greece.

I disagree with you as usual and the approval that Juan Carlos used to have is not the highest among Kings/ Queens. Queen Elizabeth II and King Harald have both had an approval of over 90%.

Juan Carlos was popular due to what he did for democracy many years ago, but there have always been many rumors surrounding him. The Spanish monarchy was not strong in itself, but because of him. I've always seen him as a cold and selfish person.

And you can not compare the Norwegian monarchy with Obama. He is an elected politician, and most of us did know that half of the US population was not going to like him.

As I've said before on others threads, The monarchies in the UK, Netherlands, Denmark and Norway remains popular, and some polls have shown record high support the last four years. This is not going to change unless we get some very very major scandals, which is unlikely.

As far as UK is concerned, I actually think it is the safest Monarchy in the world, along with the Japanese.

Republicanism in the UK remains among the lowest in the world, with figures rarely exceeding 20% in support of a British republic, some polls have it as low 13%, and consistent ~70% support for the continuation of the Monarchy. And Some polls have the support for the monarchy as high as 82%, others at around 70 to 76%, another poll has the support for the monarchy from 66 to 70%.

To abolish the British monarchy will be very difficult.
1: Most polls must show a majority for a republic, this is very very unlikely.
2: Majority in the house of commons for a referendum, this is not going to happen.
3: Majority in the referendum for a republic, this is not going to happen.
4: Changing the country's name, changing the pound, remove the royal name from all state institutions. These are just some of the things that must be changed.
5: All of this is going to cost so much money that even many Republicans will start doubting it.

And it will be very difficult in The Netherlands, Denmark and Norway too:
1: Most polls must show a majority for a republic, this is very very unlikely.
2: Majority in the parliaments for a referendum, this is not going to happen.
3: Majority in the referendum for a republic, this is not going to happen.

The vast majority of the population in these countries will never vote to replace a constitutional monarchy with a divisive politician or a celebrity etc.

I don't think we will see a republic in Sweden or Belgium either, and I hope that the Spanish monarchy will survive.

Originally Posted by wartenberg7

I think the last 20 years (Britain, Spain or Sweden) or so have shown that it isn´t THAT easy to make a monarchy fall; a lot has to happen before!
In Greece the signs of deep trouble existed for many years before 1967 and 1974 - it didn´t collapse so suddenly by any means!

The current european monarchies we have today, regardless of any troubles appearing from now and then, will be existing for many further decades to come.

You can't compare the British monarchy with the Swedish and the Spanish, but I agree with everything else you wrote in this post.

[Blog Real]

I think in monarchies most people love their royal families. The Royal Family is what connects the people to the state. The monarch is independent of any party.

I think that all monarchies are popular. Even in Spain still prefer the monarchy.
And I think the royal family remains popular in Norway.

To get everything perfect just missing my Portugal is monarchy again.

[Blog Real]

Majority supports the monarchy
Fortsatt klart flertall på Stortinget for monarki -adressa.no

http://www.tv2.no/nyheter/8178240/

[ROYAL NORWAY]

Oslo Progress Party wants referendum on monarchy - Norway Today

Aina Stenersen of Oslo FRP does not want a Republic, and proposes a referendum on the monarchy in Norway.

On Thursday it was announced that Labour’s deputy Hadia Tajik and over 80 percent of the youngest members of the Ap group in the parliament want to remove the royal house and introduce the republic in Norway. Oslo Progress Party does not want this, but wants to propose a referendum on this issue.

– It is important to hear what people think, not just me and the other politicians at Stortinget. Therefore we want referendum on the monarchy, says Aina Stenersen, head of Oslo Progress Party. The proposal will be made at the national convention of the Progress Party in late April, she said.
– I think it’s remarkable that Tajik wants a republic. We have a long and strong tradition of monarchy in Norway, and I am proud of the values ​​and traditions that the royal family represents. They have been quick to modernize themselves, and show great openness, she says.

As I've said before: Scandals around Haakon and Mette-Marit in the past 3 years have weakened the monarchy's position in the Labour Party and the media, but several experts says that there will never be any referendum as long as the King lives because that would mean a political suicide, and probably not under Haakon's reign either. And if Haakon and Mette-Marit stays away from trouble/scandals, then the monarchy will win by a large margin in a possible referendum.

[Muhler]

A wise move to call the bluff.
If the republicans won't bite, the monarchists can lean back and say: "well, we've offered you a referendum again and again but you won't accept, so shut up"!
If the republicans take the bait, they are likely to lose and the monarchists can lean back and say: "You want a referendum again!?! You lost the last one. The people don't want a republic, get it? You are the ones out of touch".

The youth organizations of the individual parties are often in complete contrast to what their mother-party has as official politics.
Partly because they are encouraged to think outside the box, partly because they practice profiling and presenting issues, partly because the leaders of the youth organization needs to be noticed by older politicians for a future political career (the topic doesn't matter, it's about being noticed) but also because they launch "trial-balloons" the mother party for various reasons will not launch themselves.

[eya]

Norway newspaper calls for end of monarchy - The Local