King Leopold II of The Belgians (1835-1909)

[Prinsara]

-Poor emotional affect
-Lack of shame or fear
-Consummate liar
-Sees other people as tools to be manipulated

Other than a need for stimulation? (as in getting into fights or somesuch), Leopold basically hits every criteria for a modern diagnosis of antisocial personality disorder/sociopathy. A low-functioning one, since he was so unpopular and bad with people.

And he basically spent his life proving the rules did not apply to him (right down to ennobling and parading his much-younger, prostitute mistress) and his conscience didn't exist. Why are we surprised by anything this man did?

Unfortunately, when you've already been declared a monster, it seems like more drops in the ocean, somehow. The bottom line is still "bad man, terrible person, evil monster".

 

[Marengo]

I read that after he visited Berlin the Empress Augusta called in an exorcist to have the rooms where he stayed in exorcised.

 

[Prinsara]

I read that after he visited Berlin the Empress Augusta called in an exorcist to have the rooms where he stayed in exorcised.

...that's almost funny.

Augusta, or Dona? Well, the first would be proving her intelligence; the second would be proving her intelligence in spite of the consensus about her!

 

[Marengo]

The book spoke about Empress Augusta but judging from the context it must have been Empress Auguste-Viktoria indeed.

--

In the mean time another Belgian royal confirms the consensus about him ; Prince Laurent spoke to Sudpresse which today leads to headlines like:

"Prince Laurent defends King Leopold II: He has done a lot for Belgium"

"You should see what Leopold II has done for Belgium," said Laurent in the Sudpresse newspapers. "He had parks built in Brussels and many other things. You should also know that many people worked for King Leopold II. They have really committed abuse. But Leopold II did not do that all himself. He has never been to Congo. So I don't see how he would have made people suffer there. It is important that this is also said once. "

For Laurent it is a foregone conclusion that "whites" have made major mistakes in Africa. "Whenever I meet an African chief or head of state, I apologize for the behavior of Europeans during the colonies. I always do that, "said the prince who regrets that the statues of his great uncle are vandalized. [...]

https://www.standaard.be/cnt/dmf20200612_04988997

---
Later this year it is 60 years ago that Congo became independent. According to Joachim Coens - leader of the Flemish Christian Democrat party CD&V says it is a good moment to offer official apologies. It would be appropriate if the King himself would convey these apologies.

https://www.gva.be/cnt/dmf20200612_...cuses-aan-te-bieden-aan-congo-is-koning-filip

--
The city of Sint-Niklaas said that the portrait of King Leopold II will probably not be returned to the city's wedding hall. It was removed a few weeks ago. The mayor also said that it is likely that the Leopold II - street will get a different name.

https://www.gva.be/cnt/dmf20200611_...der-vuur-straat-krijgt-binnenkort-andere-naam

 

[Nico]

I meant English-speaking with Anglo-Saxon, my mistake as they are indeed not the same. In modern history we are terrorized by seeing everything through an English-American prism due to the dominance of the language.

It is typical Hollywood style only to focus on English-speaking side of the story. There were other equally important and perhaps more effective people critisizing the rape of Congo - though these three men obviously played an important part, esp. in the UK. We will have to see if -as was a criticism of the book- experiences of Congolese people on the whole were ignored. But perhaps the movie will find a balance so you are right it is too soon to tell.

Anyway, it is good that a movie is in the making to highlight what happened. That it is a Hollywood production is a pity but will at least ensure that more people will hear about the history.


---
In the mean time several Belgian papers now feature articles saying that next to a mass-murderer the King was also a pedophile, who paid for sex with underage girls. According to newspaper articles of the time eight brothels in London 'exported' young girls abroad to men abroad, among them King Leopold. Some of them were barely ten years old. Leopold's mistress was Arcadie Claret, who was 15 y/o when they met.

"Argo" was a decent, if not good, film but was not, not at all even, historically accurate.
History must be told indeed, but with nuance and, again, context. You can"t expect Holywood to do that, especially at this point where any nuance is mainly unhearable.

 

[Denville]

"Argo" was a decent, if not good, film but was not, not at all even, historically accurate.
History must be told indeed, but with nuance and, again, context. You can"t expect Holywood to do that, especially at this point where any nuance is mainly unhearable.

If its a Hollywood movie it is probably going to concentrate on the English speaking people...and Roger Casement an Anglo Irishman was the one who wrote about the horrors that happened there....

 

[An Ard Ri]

If its a Hollywood movie it is probably going to concentrate on the English speaking people...and Roger Casement an Anglo Irishman was the one who wrote about the horrors that happened there....

Sir Roger Casement and his African explorer close friend Herbert Ward were both members of the Congo Reform Association.They has spent some time there together.Herbert was clearly captivated by Casement and wrote

Imagine a tall, handsome man, of fine bearing; thin, mere muscle and bone, a sun-tanned face, blue eyes and black curly hair. A pure Irishman he is, with a captivating voice and singular charm of manner. A man of distinction and great refinement, high-minded and courteous, impulsive and poetical.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f1/Herbert_ward_and_roger_casement.jpg

Casement must be the Irish spy mentioned above he was stripped of his knighthood and executed by the British for for high treason in 1916 following his Irish revolutionary activities .His name was also blackened by Scotlandyard with the releasing of parts of his "Black Diaries" which detailed his homosexual activities which at the time which were illegal.

 

[Marengo]

The royal court in Brussels says that it is waiting for a "historical consensus" and a "appropriate occasion" to speak about Leopold II's role in Congo.

https://www.standaard.be/cnt/dmf20200612_04989300

That perhaps means that apologies won't be made any time soon.

--
Last night there was a 'nocturnal raid' on street name signs and statues of Leopold II. In Brussels the statue of King Baudouin was also defaced & covered with red paint. It is unclear if this was done by mistake or a protest for Baudouin's tacit approval of the murder of Patrice Lumumba. In Forest (Brussels) a statue of Leopold II was pulled over and replaced by a photo of Patrice Lumumba.

https://www.nieuwsblad.be/cnt/dmf20200612_04989043

 

[Prinsara]

The book spoke about Empress Augusta but judging from the context it must have been Empress Auguste-Viktoria indeed.

--

In the mean time another Belgian royal confirms the consensus about him ; Prince Laurent spoke to Sudpresse which today leads to headlines like:

"Prince Laurent defends King Leopold II: He has done a lot for Belgium"

Laurent... good grief. Fortunately you have never been known for keeping your mouth shut, so feel free to continue not adding to your credibility.

"You should see what Leopold II has done for Belgium," said Laurent in the Sudpresse newspapers. "He had parks built in Brussels and many other things. You should also know that many people worked for King Leopold II. They have really committed abuse. But Leopold II did not do that all himself. He has never been to Congo. So I don't see how he would have made people suffer there. It is important that this is also said once. "

Or you didn't know that Baudouin tried this 60 years ago and it didn't look good then.

The tired point about Leopold "never having been to the Congo" becomes irrelevant since it's also on record he tried to cover up what he did the entire time, from buying it under false benevolent pretenses to bitching about journalists he couldn't pay off.

 

[An Ard Ri]

The attacks on statues of King Leopold II are making headlines around the world.

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/10/europe/belgium-king-leopold-ii-statue-intl/index.html

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...statue-Belgiums-King-Leopold-II-Brussels.html

 

[Mbruno]

The royal court in Brussels says that it is waiting for a "historical consensus" and a "appropriate occasion" to speak about Leopold II's role in Congo.

https://www.standaard.be/cnt/dmf20200612_04989300

That perhaps means that apologies won't be made any time soon.

No European country as far as I know has ever apologized e.g. for the transatlantic slave trade . I don’t see any reason why the current royal court of Belgium would have to make any apology for King Léopold II’s rule in the Congo Free State.

 

[Prinsara]

Because the more accurate analogy would be Germany apologizing for the Holocaust. Which I am pretty sure they have done. Repeatedly.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congo_Free_State_propaganda_war:"Part of a series on: Denial of mass killings"

"Appointed by Leopold himself, the commission reported horrific testimony, facts on deaths and mutilations, and letters obtained from the Congo Administration documenting the abuses. Leopold could not refute his own commission's findings."

 

[Somebody]

A slightly longer article on Laurent's comments. He really is tone-deaf. Leopold II was able to do lots of things in Belgium precisely because the people in Congo were treated so badly on his behalf.

However, the fact that Filip doesn't intend to say anything at all for the time being doesn't look good either. Maybe they should talk to their northern neighbors and ask why both former queen Beatrix and current king Willem-Alexander were the ones who were pushing for expressing apologies to the former colony Indonesia.

 

[Nico]

Meanwhile, and somewhat matter of reflexion, the Leopold II statue in the heart of Kinshasa, capital of the ex Belgian Congo ... is safe and sound.

"It is a Belgian-Belgian affair which does not concern us directly"

"“The statue of Leopold II, for us, it reflects a story, a memory. It is a benchmark for our children ”

https://www.africaradio.com/news/en-rdc-leopold-ii-reste-de-marbre-face-aux-polemiques-168970

https://www.lepoint.fr/afrique/stat...mps-la-a-kinshasa-12-06-2020-2379630_3826.php

 

[Prinsara]

Meanwhile, and somewhat matter of reflexion, the Leopold II statue in the heart of Kinshasa, capital of the ex Belgian Congo ... is safe and sound.

"It is a Belgian-Belgian affair which does not concern us directly"

https://www.africaradio.com/news/en-rdc-leopold-ii-reste-de-marbre-face-aux-polemiques-168970

https://www.lepoint.fr/afrique/stat...mps-la-a-kinshasa-12-06-2020-2379630_3826.php

Meanwhile, the question is, why on Earth do they still have a statue of him there? They renamed the city from Léopoldville decades ago and somehow decided this was fine?

The DRC has and has had bigger problems. I guess if they want to keep him, that's their business, but it's admittedly bizarre.

Edit: Right, well, the article also says they have far bigger problems, unsurprisingly, and no current protests about racism. Also that the statue is safe and sound because it's already been relocated multiple times. It's currently in a guarded park for educational purposes with statues of Albert I and Henry Stanley. The original statue was dedicated by Albert in 1928. Leopold's ghost has a long shelf life.

 

[Nico]

Meanwhile, the question is, why on Earth do they still have a statue of him there? They renamed the city from Léopoldville decades ago and somehow decided this was fine?

The DRC has and has had bigger problems. I guess if they want to keep him, that's their business, but it's admittedly bizarre.

Because, ultimately, that's their choice to view their very own history with a whole aspect : the good, the bad, the despicable.
For right or wrong, Leopold II belongs to this history, like in Belgium, as he should, where he can be subject of debates.
Quite a lesson for our somewhat offended prone societies, where vandalizing historical monuments seem the only way to debate those days.

Thankfully counterpoints do exist, and like any historical discussion, should be heard :

"No, Leopold II was not genocidal"

https://www.lalibre.be/debats/opini...t-pas-un-genocidaire-567922033570ed3894b6608a

 

[Nico]

We can continue indefinitely like this if you wish :

https://www.theguardian.com/theguardian/1999/may/13/features11.g22

'There is nothing that could compare with the horrors of Hitler and Stalin, or the deliberate massacres of the Indian, Tasmanian and Aboriginal populations. A black legend has been created by polemicists and British and American journalists feeding off the imaginations of novelists and the re-writers of history."

The fact it that nobody will have the last word on this case, and that's the very point of History : it's always open to conjectures.
And because it's somewhat trendy nowadays to call Leopold II the biggest racist of them all doesn't mean it's necessarily true.
Nuance is a luxury that doesn't fit with Twitter i'm afraid, the place of the ultimate manichaeism.

 

[HereditaryPrincess]

No European country as far as I know has ever apologized e.g. for the transatlantic slave trade . I don’t see any reason why the current royal court of Belgium would have to make any apology for King Léopold II’s rule in the Congo Free State.

Just because no other European country has apologised (which isn't true as Italy has also removed statues), doesn't give Belgium an excuse to also stay silent. As MLK said, "in the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends".

 

[Marengo]

I don't think it is a good idea for Belgium/ the King to be forced into an apology. To do so now, under pressure of an American movement, is perhaps far from ideal and even populist.

The 60th anniversary of Congo's independence will happen in a few months. The King was supposed to be there but due to the Corona virus his attendance is cancelled. It would have been a good moment to offer some sort of apology. But note that these apologies are often more an issue in the homeland than in the former colony. When the King of The Netherlands made apologies in Indonesia it was big news in The Netherlands while in Indonesia it barely featured in the news and people shrugged their shoulders at it.

And because it's somewhat trendy nowadays to call Leopold II the biggest racist of them all doesn't mean it's necessarily true.

This was en vogue at the time as well. There was even a conference about misdeeds in the Congo at the time. His rule was exceptional. It stood out from other colonial rules at the time for being more cruel. If it was all a ploy to distract from British atrocities in the Boer wars I don't know. If it was it certainly did not work that way as the Boer wards were unpopular at the time and it is clear that concentration camps were a British invention.

I am not sure who is quoted in the quote that you posted. Judging from the article it must have been former Belgian officials from the Belgian Congo. If they were interviewed in 1999 that means they can not have been active in the Congo during the rule of Leopold II. They must have been active there at a later date when some of the worst practices were discontinued.

Criticism of the book of Hochschild is not new indeed. It was described as a 'soddy piece of work' and the way he arrived to certain numbers seems rather unscientific. There may be disagreement among historians just how awful Leopold's rule was but that his rule was exceptionally cruel -also for the standards of the day- is something that is not often placed in doubt. What he did do was to revive interest in this topic which was almost forgotten in international historiography, and thus helped fuel more research on the topic.

 

[maria-olivia]

They distroy our Patrimoine during the night , even our King Baudouin. This is against the law. The Monuments will be restaured and put inside .

 

[theroyalfly]

No European country as far as I know has ever apologized e.g. for the transatlantic slave trade . I don’t see any reason why the current royal court of Belgium would have to make any apology for King Léopold II’s rule in the Congo Free State.

I totally agree. Even The Japanese Imperial Family has kept mum about their atrocities during the World War II. But I understand the sentiments of other people though but I guess it's not wise to single the current Belgian court out.

I've seen some videos on Tiktok regarding this though.

They distroy our Patrimoine during the night , even our King Baudouin. This is against the law. The Monuments will be restaured and put inside .

I am with you. Destroying monuments is so barbaric. It's against the law.

 

[Nico]

They distroy our Patrimoine during the night , even our King Baudouin. This is against the law. The Monuments will be restaured and put inside .

To insult the memory of king Baudoin, who was basically a saint, is the proof that facts or History don't matter in those attacks.
Basic vandalism will not serve the cause.

 

[An Ard Ri]

The attack on the statue of King Baudouin was shameful and an utter disgrace ,this is wanton destruction.

https://www.euronews.com/2020/06/12/a-statue-of-former-belgian-king-baudouin-defaced-with-red-paint

 

[Prinsara]

Is the court not perhaps considering that this might have been averted with the most minimal effort and apology?

"Yes, we're taking the statues [of the thoroughly despicable mass murderer] down. We apologize for not doing it sooner."

That's really all that needs to be said right now. Despite his less-than-minimal credibility, things like Laurent opening his mouth help nothing.

 

[Muhler]

It's not about King Baudouin. It's open season on statues, without regards to history.

 

[Mbruno]

It's not about King Baudouin. It's open season on statues, without regards to history.

If European history is now to be seen solely from a contemporary perspective, then I am afraid there won”t be many monuments left standing.

Of course history also tells us how “ cultural revolutions” end and it is not pretty.

 

[Gawin]

If European history is now to be seen solely from a contemporary perspective, then I am afraid there won”t be many monuments left standing.

Of course history also tells us how “ cultural revolutions” end and it is not pretty.

Well, the past wasn't pretty and neither is honoring those who committed the atrocities with statues. IMO this cultural revolution is long overdue.

But as you've pointed out before, where do we draw the line? I'm fine with removing some statues but not others. So what criteria should be used and how do we come up with a consensus? Government officials need to address this issue now and not repeat Bristol's mistake by taking 20 years to do it.

 

[Prinsara]

The news of Leopold's pedophilia isn't really "news", either. It was being discussed in 2012.

Think of how horrifying this would be without the DRC.

 

[Durham]

So what criteria should be used and how do we come up with a consensus?

That's the rub of course. I'm not sure consensus is even possible when some people have such extreme ideological viewpoints.

Mods - I don't want to derail the thread so please move if necessary.

 

[An Ard Ri]

Are there many streets/squares/civic offices named after Leopold II in Belgium?