Danish Royal History: General Discussion

[Vito M.]

It seems that the various Dukes of Schleswig this and and Schleswig that were accepted for ebenburtig purposes as more or less royal. The daughters and second sons were also princes and princesses. This despite the fact that sometimes they married mere Danish nobles.

Yet if this is is so why were they (the Dukes and their descendants) not also titled Princes of Denmark? Wasn't the whole reason they were accepted as quasi-royal and acceptable marriage partners for various German and other royal families the fact that they were very remote descendants of a Danish King? Then why no princely title?

[Kataryn]

Originally Posted by Vito M.

It seems that the various Dukes of Schleswig this and and Schleswig that were accepted for ebenburtig purposes as more or less royal. The daughters and second sons were also princes and princesses. This despite the fact that sometimes they married mere Danish nobles.

Yet if this is is so why were they (the Dukes and their descendants) not also titled Princes of Denmark? Wasn't the whole reason they were accepted as quasi-royal and acceptable marriage partners for various German and other royal families the fact that they were very remote descendants of a Danish King? Then why no princely title?

Probably political reasons. It was important for the idea of the Holy Roman Empire that it was mainly Germanic, even though the Habsburg-Kaiser possessed non-Germanic countries as well. So the position of Schleswig and Holstein as German countries and part of the Holy Roman Empire had to be set apart from Denmark, the non-Germanic neighbor. But of course the Schleswig-Holstein ducal families were rulers and as such considered equal to the other reigning houses. Later, after the end of the Holy Roman Empire and the formation of the German Bund it was even more important for the leading country of the Bund, Prussia, that Schleswig-Holstein was independant from Denmark.

[johnkathmartin]

Good afternoon everyone.
I am new to this forum, and was hoping that someone could help me please.
I am seeking anecdotes and photographs that I might use for an article I am writing on the famous old ship Jutlandia, when she was used as a Royal yacht for both the Danish and the Thai Royal families during the period 1960 to 1963.
Ideally, a photograph of either or each of the Royal parties while they were on board the ship.
I would of course give credit to anyone who was able to help me in the article.
Any help would be much appreciated.

Kind regards,


Captain John Martin

[Everythingold]

Hi there and warm greeting from Canada!


We have come into possession a very old photo album that we think may have belonged to a member of the Danish Royal Family and are trying to determine if this is the case.


We would be very grateful for any possible help you can provide. We've attached a few pictures to see if anything is familiar....


We would like to restore and preserve this album and even get the history of who is pictured. The album is very big, heavy, and is made out of extremely detailed carved/tooled leather.


Most sincerely,

Andrew & Amber

[GracieGiraffe]

It certainly looks like an exquisite album.

Someone here might be able to help you.

[Muhler]

Goodmorning and congratulations on your first post.

That's a very nice album. A little treasure.

However, what makes you think this belonged to a royal?
Are there any names?
Any dates?

My initial impression is that the album belonged to a upper middleclass family.
The uniforms of the two soldiers are post 1848, more likely post 1864 and they depict a cavalryman and most likely an infantryman but as far as I can tell they are not officers. - The vast majority, if not all, of those whom the DRF would associate back then would have been officers.
All sons of the middleclass would also have been conscripted as privates back then.

The other prominent young man looks like he had his photo taken on the occasion of him being ordained priest.

[Fredrika-rouva]

The womens' clothes seem to be approximately from the years 1890 - 1910.
This picture from Danish National Museum shows a home-made children's costyme from 1908 with similar vertical ribbon than in that picture of two girls in the garden. Maybe that girl has a home-made dress. Text under that National Museum's picture mentions that a Danish clothing magazine published clothing patterns at the time.

[Muhler]

If you happen to be a decendant of a black slave, or live in the Virgin Islands or just interested in slavery, this may interest you: Ophævelse af slaveri, Dansk Vestindien, 1848 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

This is the proclamation signed by the governor of the Danish West Indies, Peter von Scholten about emancipating all slaves on the islands. - It's also written in English.

On top the governor states the authority invested in him, through His Majesty. Then he lists all his own titles and honors before getting to the point.

I read an article the other day about slavery on the Danish West Indies. The mortality rate through small pox was much less here than on neighboring islands.
Not from kindness, but simply because it was more profitable to have healthy slaves than dying slaves.
All, repeat all, slaves in the Danish West Indies were vaccinated, that was not the case on other islands.

Most plantations on the Virgin Islands were not owned by Danes, but mostly by Britons and Americans - they just paid taxes to Denmark, which is also why no one in Denmark cared about slavery there.
But the political climate changed and very much because of the slave abolitionist movements in USA and Europe at the time - and perhaps because the govenor, Peter von Scholten had a black mistress, who was de facto the first lady of the islands. So in 1848 in the governor decided to emancipate the slaves and abolish slavery.
The government back in Denmark had other things to worry about. Absolutism was endning, a parliament was being formed, a new Constitution was being written and on top of that a civil war started.
So by the time anyone had time to deal with the issue and the ahem usurping of power by the governor it was too late and turning back the clock was politically unpalatable anyway.

So yes, one man, Peter von Scholten ended slavery in the Danish realm, but I think it's safe to say that a women, a former black slave, his mistress and de facto wife, was the one behind it all.

No one on the islands made a lot of noise. Because the the abolistionist movement was strong at the time, not least in Britain, backed up by the presence of British navy ships, - while Denmark was far away.

[polyesco]

Truly fascinating thank you for always adding a bit of history. Its great

[Muhler]

My pleasure.

Here is the first (democratic) Constitution in Denmark. From 1849: Grundloven 1849 - Danish Constitution from 1849 - a set on Flickr

There was of course a kind of Constitution centuries before that.
The Danish Håndfæstning, which was directly inspired by Magna Carta, and contained many items almost identical, is from 1282.
People back then knew perfectly well what went on in neighboring countries and they debated it. And just like in the Magna Carta the Håndfæstning stated that no one could be sentenced without due legal process.

The Danish "Magna Carta" functioned in various forms until the introduction of Absolutim in 1660.

The king, Erik Klipping, who was forced to sign the Håndfæstning was later on murdered in one of the most famous assassinations in Danish history and to this day it is still not clear who was actually behind it. It is in any way a great medieval crime story. I've sometimes thought about writing about it.

[Muhler]

This is the story of Princess Helena, who after WWII was expelled from Denmark because of her sympathies for the German occupation.

BB 2007: https://app.box.com/s/t3mpis346dia4bz3abf3

BB 2007: https://app.box.com/s/gfg13l8adm2j747su8zs

But a close friend of the DRF before WWII, Schalburg, also went to the other side during the war and he was indeed killed on The Eastern Front. Here is his story: https://app.box.com/s/8g31xvhl48vk16uez6xv
Indeed his name has become synonymous with armed enemy collaborators.

[Muhler]

The story about Empress Dagmar's bodyguards while she stayed in Denmark after the Russian Revolution:
(To be moved if need be).
BB 2006: https://app.box.com/s/k1nk1iua5mnrpi271td2

[polyesco]

really appreciate the history. thank you Muhler for the translations

[Muhler]

My pleasure.

Here are some more:

First a statevisit anno 1606: https://app.box.com/s/wvegqith7lsirg34flv6

Then how Queen Margrethe I dealt with a potential rebellion in a very firm way! https://app.box.com/s/sqts8lfiyu8oewdpjiei

And how QMI's obituary may have read, had there been papers back then in 1412: https://app.box.com/s/4bde2hvaibthe21thbtt

And the slave trade in the 900's was going very well, thank you! https://app.box.com/s/g2bg6e7ujx7q209g7i8q

[CyrilVladisla]

Originally Posted by Muhler

This is the story of Princess Helena, who after WWII was expelled from Denmark because of her sympathies for the German occupation.

BB 2007: https://app.box.com/s/t3mpis346dia4bz3abf3

BB 2007: https://app.box.com/s/gfg13l8adm2j747su8zs

But a close friend of the DRF before WWII, Schalburg, also went to the other side during the war and he was indeed killed on The Eastern Front. Here is his story: https://app.box.com/s/8g31xvhl48vk16uez6xv
Indeed his name has become synonymous with armed enemy collaborators.

Princess Helena was allowed to go to Denmark when her husband, Prince Harald became very ill. Her biography indicated that she died in Denmark. However, after Harald's demise, did she have to go back into exile?

[Muhler]

Originally Posted by CyrilVladisla

Princess Helena was allowed to go to Denmark when her husband, Prince Harald became very ill. Her biography indicated that she died in Denmark. However, after Harald's demise, did she have to go back into exile?

No, she was allowed to stay in DK after the death of her husband in 1949, but she lived a very withdrawn life until her death in 1962.

[Muhler]

I learned a funny little thing today that locally involves the DRF.
Hvorfor fejrer vi fødselsdag? | Videnskab.dk

It all starts with a question as to why we celebrate birthdays.

And, at least in DK, it's a relatively new phenomenon, introduced after the Reformation in 1536.
Before then name-days were celebrated, that was based on Catholic traditions. And on name-days you were send a knot-letter. Such a letter contained either a knot, which you had to untie or a riddle, and if you couldn't then yu had to invite the one who send you the letter to a little feast or give him/her a present.
But after the Reformation, such traditions were discarded as being Catholic, so instead a Prostestant German tradition about celebrating the annual day for your birth was adopted. - And it was in fact brought to Denmark by the DRF. The DRF picked most of their queens and princesses from Germany at that time.
The nobillity quickly followed suit, but the general public didn't start to celebrate birthdays until the 1800's.
Especially in the countryside, where people often weren't that sure about what date they were born. So the nearest special day was used as a reference point. Say Easter Day. Okay, if you were told you were born on Easter Day, then your "geburtstag" as it was called then (more on that later) fell each year on Easter Day - There is just one little problem: Easter Day isn't the same day every year...
Eventually, as people became more litterate, people kept a more firm track of the date of their birth.

However, by the first Schleswigan War in the mid 1800's it dawned on the Danes that we had been using a German word for centuries, and Germans weren't that popular, they were after all in revolt against the rest of the realm. So the Danish word for birthday (fødselsdag) replaced the old Geburtstag.

It is known that the DRF celebrated birthdays at least as early as the 1600's.

[Muhler]

Here is a map of places in DK where the Danish king have been buried: http://videnskab.dk/sites/all/files/...ve_danmark.jpg

In recent centuries the majority of kings have been buried at Roskilde Cathedral and that is where QMII is to be buried or rather entombed as well.

There is one peculiarity regarding Danish kings though. If they died from natural causes they were shipped to whatever place they wished to be buried, however if the were killed, they were buried locally.
That is the case with say Erik Klipping, who was murdered and buried ner the town of Viborg. (That is no doubt the most famous assassination in Danish history and to this day still hotly debated) . That is also the case with Svend Grathe who was killed after a battle.

[oldwest61]

The above link, http://videnskab.dk/sites/all/files/...ve_danmark.jpg
is no longer valid. Does anyone know where it is? Thanks!

[Muhler]

In what post was that?