The Red Nose Debate

[Donna]

Originally Posted by paca

On another note: todays paper talks about a support webpage for the organist. Apparently about 300 people have signed a petition for him to get his job back, as he has been fired before even found guilty. (If I am not mistaken that is unlawful even in Monaco, as that would mean that you are being considered guilty before the verdict, so he should actually sue his employer for unlawful act). The paper isn't sure whether this is a joke or not, as the site is an organists site and the people there are not Monegasque.

What is the poor organist accused of? Perhaps playing something that his highness doesn't appreciate? Or stealing the organ?

[paca]

Originally Posted by Donna

What is the poor organist accused of? Perhaps playing something that his highness doesn't appreciate? Or stealing the organ?

Painting a red nose on ALberts picture and calling him a clown. When you consider that Albert has been pictured putting on a red nose himself and running around with his tie around his head, then one would think that Albert would have to put himself into prison for ridiculing himself in such a public manner... It is not like Giacone did do anything different to what Albert already did himself? Basically Giacone could claim that he was only visually quoting ALbert. Moviedirectors claim that often enough when they are stealing other peoples ideas for lack of their own. But since when has quoting become a crime as long as you acknowledge the source?

[paca]

More support for Giacone Il risque six mois de prison ferme pour avoir dessiné le prince Albert II de Monaco avec un nez rouge - Le Bar de la Marine

AbeilleMusique.com : Forums - 12 - Orgue - Ne tirez pas sur l'organiste

I wonder whether Albert really wants this sort of publicity for Monaco about a red nose. Just wait how some media will jump on it and wait until he writes his book? Well he might not be able to live in Monaco anymore, but seeing that he won't be able to work there, he will have to either stay unemployed or leave. He might cash in with a book contract about all the dirty secrets that many Monegasques know about but never talk about to strangers. His lawyer already pointed in the direction in his plaidoyer which turn this could take. Apparently that's what Albert wants.

[LadyMacAlpine]

Originally Posted by paca

More support for Giacone Il risque six mois de prison ferme pour avoir dessiné le prince Albert II de Monaco avec un nez rouge - Le Bar de la Marine

AbeilleMusique.com : Forums - 12 - Orgue - Ne tirez pas sur l'organiste

I wonder whether Albert really wants this sort of publicity for Monaco about a red nose. Just wait how some media will jump on it and wait until he writes his book? Well he might not be able to live in Monaco anymore, but seeing that he won't be able to work there, he will have to either stay unemployed or leave. He might cash in with a book contract about all the dirty secrets that many Monegasques know about but never talk about to strangers. His lawyer already pointed in the direction in his plaidoyer which turn this could take. Apparently that's what Albert wants.

I won't be surprised to see Albert's people go after more including Forums (which they are reading) for individuals within them.

[paca]

Originally Posted by LadyMacAlpine

I won't be surprised to see Albert's people go after more including Forums (which they are reading) for individuals within them.

Well, that will be difficult and will create plenty of bad publicity Monaco as people nowadays do not roll over and play dead, but make it very publicly known. Besides there are plenty of other blogs out there that do not have so nice comments about him. I won't be surprised if the press and I don't mean the tabloids, but those that counts will be having their pick on Albert. After all the money laundering image is well known and in peoples minds. But suppressing liberty of speech, destroying someones existence because he simply repeated what ALbert has been doing himself ( remember the pics of ALbert at football game with red nose, or even worse with a tie tied around his head? I don't remember any other head of state behaving that way), gives a different angle of attack. His lovelife not being supportive either. If Giacone will receive his sentence he will become a symbol of how Monaco treats people who voice their opinion and it will be difficult to persuade the EU to have ties with Monaco as obviously they do not share the same values. There have been accusations before, quite a few actually, the EU might decide to use this to pressure on Monaco. France might use it as well. I am not sure whether a red nose warrants to put yourself in a position that reflects bad on your country and might get you in political grievance. Also it shows to his enemies at home how fragile he really is. I hope he sleeps well at night.

[sandsla]

Originally Posted by LadyMacAlpine

I won't be surprised to see Albert's people go after more including Forums (which they are reading) for individuals within them.

That would certainly show him as silly immature man, I would think Albert would/should be above it, and as to care or try to go after (if that was possible), these forums, which I am sure he takes as trivial, as he should. Really?

I saw that picture of him long ago, where he put on the red nose. I thought then another politician would have been a little smarter about offering up that kind of image & opportunity to anyone in the media or to the public. I once read where a journalist had said when you call the palace and they put you on hold, that they played "Send in the Clowns." This was when Rainier was still alive. The reporter did not have to explain that you probably don't want to send that kind of message? I have to agree with much of Paca's post. Also, although I liked his speech this year, I thought it showed him on the defense at times, which would imply he is coming from a weakened positioned. He should have handled that differently! He is doing the same in giving any attention at all to this guy and such a trivial matter. Surely he has bigger issues to deal with. What is that saying? If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen!

As for more serious things, I said before, he should have known they were going to put him to the test when he took over, just as they did his father. However, Monaco was not as strong then and there was even less reason for anyone to want to cause trouble. It is that these countries are small and not so powerful, that they are able to hang on as Monarchies - they do not pose a threat. But Monaco (I believe?) does at least 50% of the private investment banking in Europe and the EU has been trying to put the squeeze on Monaco and it's cozy tax position, for awhile. It's the success, that often is the problem. I sympathize with Albert here, I'm sure he has everyone testing his mettle these days.

[goody7058]

Please tell me that this is a joke. Albert going to send someone to jail over red nose on a picture.

[paca]

Originally Posted by goody7058

Please tell me that this is a joke. Albert going to send someone to jail over red nose on a picture.

No it is not. The trial has already been, they are just waiting for the verdict in October. The prosecution has demanded 6 months in prison and a fine of 1500 Euros. In spite of all this he has been fired before being found guilty. IMO that is unlawful. He is working in the church but since the church is state church, this is related to the interior ministery who must have demanded his release, well knowing that you can not fire someone because he is being tried and especially not before he has been sentenced. If the courts were independent, they wouldn't have fired him, as he can sue them for unlawful release. Seeing that they did means that they already know that no judge will order to reinstate him in his functions. By firing the organist they made a statement which Albert has claimed to be untrue: justice is not independent. Many judges have left Monaco and claimed that they were being approached by the officials to temper with the verdicts. BY licensing M Giacone, a case that is bound to attract media attention, they have shown in advance that they know the verdict and that the official announcement is only a farce. THus unless these people are stupid, which I am certain they are not, they have drawn a clear picture of Monacos justice system. So to sum things up: Albert is suing (having his government sue) for a ridiculously minor offense, thus demonstrating weakness, while attempting to demonstrate strength. Further his government is unlawfully firing the man (even if he was found guilty that would not be sufficient reason as he is an artist and not a bearer of secrets or holding any other function that would be affected by a guilty verdict), thus showing clearly that they know what the verdict in this case will be and that a lawsuit for unlawful licensing would also fail. Hence in on wipe they have shown that Albert is aweak monarch and that Monacos justice system is non existent. I have mentioned it before with lawsuits surrounding Stephanie and Daniel Ducruet, and it is true for this one and others as well. That is why people are always trying to get things tried in France.

[lilae]

Originally Posted by paca

Well, that will be difficult and will create plenty of bad publicity Monaco as people nowadays do not roll over and play dead, but make it very publicly known. Besides there are plenty of other blogs out there that do not have so nice comments about him.

I won't be surprised if the press and I don't mean the tabloids, but those that counts will be having their pick on Albert. After all the money laundering image is well known and in peoples minds. But suppressing liberty of speech, destroying someones existence because he simply repeated what ALbert has been doing himself ( remember the pics of ALbert at football game with red nose, or even worse with a tie tied around his head? I don't remember any other head of state behaving that way), gives a different angle of attack. His lovelife not being supportive either. If Giacone will receive his sentence he will become a symbol of how Monaco treats people who voice their opinion and it will be difficult to persuade the EU to have ties with Monaco as obviously they do not share the same values.

There have been accusations before, quite a few actually, the EU might decide to use this to pressure on Monaco. France might use it as well. I am not sure whether a red nose warrants to put yourself in a position that reflects bad on your country and might get you in political grievance. Also it shows to his enemies at home how fragile he really is. I hope he sleeps well at night.

yes, this increase of tension is not good... I do beleive that some people had noticed how fragile he is at home.

[Ghislaine]

Originally Posted by paca

No it is not. The trial has already been, they are just waiting for the verdict in October. The prosecution has demanded 6 months in prison and a fine of 1500 Euros. In spite of all this he has been fired before being found guilty. IMO that is unlawful. He is working in the church but since the church is state church, this is related to the interior ministery who must have demanded his release, well knowing that you can not fire someone because he is being tried and especially not before he has been sentenced. If the courts were independent, they wouldn't have fired him, as he can sue them for unlawful release. Seeing that they did means that they already know that no judge will order to reinstate him in his functions. By firing the organist they made a statement which Albert has claimed to be untrue: justice is not independent. Many judges have left Monaco and claimed that they were being approached by the officials to temper with the verdicts. BY licensing M Giacone, a case that is bound to attract media attention, they have shown in advance that they know the verdict and that the official announcement is only a farce. THus unless these people are stupid, which I am certain they are not, they have drawn a clear picture of Monacos justice system. So to sum things up: Albert is suing (having his government sue) for a ridiculously minor offense, thus demonstrating weakness, while attempting to demonstrate strength. Further his government is unlawfully firing the man (even if he was found guilty that would not be sufficient reason as he is an artist and not a bearer of secrets or holding any other function that would be affected by a guilty verdict), thus showing clearly that they know what the verdict in this case will be and that a lawsuit for unlawful licensing would also fail. Hence in on wipe they have shown that Albert is aweak monarch and that Monacos justice system is non existent. I have mentioned it before with lawsuits surrounding Stephanie and Daniel Ducruet, and it is true for this one and others as well. That is why people are always trying to get things tried in France.

Paca, with regard to your above post: could you tell me who is actually sueing Mr. Giacone? Did Albert (and Proust, Barsi & Co.) actually file a law suit themselves or was it someone working for the justice department who filed the claim (in their name, based on the lese-majeste law)? I'm curious to know if Albert and the others play an active part in this business or if it's an overzealous public servant.

Originally Posted by royal pauper

THE biggest PA's achevement is;
He slept with many, many more women that he could have ever imagined or dreamed of if he was just a regular Joe.

That deserves a big fat meow But all joking aside, Forbes still has him listed as one of the most eligible bachelors in the world, so that story hasn't come to an end yet... Still room left...

[olga101]

Originally Posted by sandsla

That would certainly show him as silly immature man, I would think Albert would/should be above it, and as to care or try to go after (if that was possible), these forums, which I am sure he takes as trivial, as he should. Really?

I saw that picture of him long ago, where he put on the red nose. I thought then another politician would have been a little smarter about offering up that kind of image & opportunity to anyone in the media or to the public. I once read where a journalist had said when you call the palace and they put you on hold, that they played "Send in the Clowns." This was when Rainier was still alive. The reporter did not have to explain that you probably don't want to send that kind of message? I have to agree with much of Paca's post. Also, although I liked his speech this year, I thought it showed him on the defense at times, which would imply he is coming from a weakened positioned. He should have handled that differently! He is doing the same in giving any attention at all to this guy and such a trivial matter. Surely he has bigger issues to deal with. What is that saying? If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen!

As for more serious things, I said before, he should have known they were going to put him to the test when he took over, just as they did his father. However, Monaco was not as strong then and there was even less reason for anyone to want to cause trouble. It is that these countries are small and not so powerful, that they are able to hang on as Monarchies - they do not pose a threat. But Monaco (I believe?) does at least 50% of the private investment banking in Europe and the EU has been trying to put the squeeze on Monaco and it's cozy tax position, for awhile. It's the success, that often is the problem. I sympathize with Albert here, I'm sure he has everyone testing his mettle these days.

Absolutely, I totally agree. I can't believe this. If you're going to be so outrageously and playboy gungho and be proud of it-then why can't you understand other's sense of it. And how could you possibly care, if you're so confident and defiant that you are so untouchable, then how could anything touch you? If this is true then they've lost their sense of fair play and most of all intelligence. The end of the line, man.

[paca]

Originally Posted by Ghislaine

Paca, with regard to your above post: could you tell me who is actually sueing Mr. Giacone? Did Albert (and Proust, Barsi & Co.) actually file a law suit themselves or was it someone working for the justice department who filed the claim (in their name, based on the lese-majeste law)? I'm curious to know if Albert and the others play an active part in this business or if it's an overzealous public servant.That deserves a big fat meow But all joking aside, Forbes still has him listed as one of the most eligible bachelors in the world, so that story hasn't come to an end yet... Still room left...

Proust and Valleri were actually sueing themselves. Proust is head of Alberts parliament and thus acting his name as well, but those filed personal complaints. THEre might be an article on maprincipaute with more details. But without doubt, they would not have acted without Alberts approval. Outrage is a matter of interpretation and the prosecutor could easily have decided not persue and simply have him stop his site. Obviously I am not an expert in Monegasque law, but I am sure that in many other countries they would have shrugged it off and said that it is a waste of taxpayers money and judges are overloaded with work thus don't have time for silly matters like this. Maybe Monaco judges are underworked seeing that the real criminals that actually need to go to prison get away with it as HObbes Melville trial has proved. Thanks to princely government btw.

[paca]

Originally Posted by olga101

Absolutely, I totally agree. I can't believe this. If you're going to be so outrageously and playboy gungho and be proud of it-then why can't you understand other's sense of it. And how could you possibly care, if you're so confident and defiant that you are so untouchable, then how could anything touch you? If this is true then they've lost their sense of fair play and most of all intelligence. The end of the line, man.

It is not a question of IF. The trial has already taken place and they are just waiting for the verdict which is going to be announced beginning October. But basically it is clear and everyone here knows it. I have no doubt in my mind that the prosecutor will win his case and the court will go along with the suggestions for punishment. The smartest thing IMO to do would be of Albert to give an immediate pardon and ask for him to be given his job back, saying that he is sure that the offendend didn't mean any harm and that he would be fine with a simple excuse and know that it wasn't going to happen again. He should use this opportunity to point out that people are entitle to an oppinion and to voice it, as long as it is appropriate. He should point out to leave cabaret and caricatures to the professionals and say that he personally enjoys it (like in the olden days the jester). Maybe he could encourage sth along the lines, as Monaco does not have this sort of culture which other countries have and which might actually serve as a relief valve and stop the rumour mills. They could actually make fun of all the rumours that are going around and which are way more harmful then rednose pics as they do hurt people without reason.

[Glistening Seas]

oh i had nooo idea that monaco handled 60 percent of financials in the EU. however, it's obvious the shady things everyone used to talk about "must have" been cleared up otherwise the EU would have "never" let Monaco into the EU. So, i think Monaco has/is moved/moving out the the "sunny place for shady people" image that everyone talked about. PA education is world class so he "must" know a thing or two about finances "with or without the red nose" i really don't think that Monaco's financial future or his future in the EU is something that Monaco or he needs to worry about as long as they keep moving out of that "sunny place for shady people" reputation they had acquired.

[lilae]

Originally Posted by paca

Proust and Valleri were actually sueing themselves. Proust is head of Alberts parliament and thus acting his name as well, but those filed personal complaints. THEre might be an article on maprincipaute with more details. But without doubt, they would not have acted without Alberts approval. Outrage is a matter of interpretation and the prosecutor could easily have decided not persue and simply have him stop his site. Obviously I am not an expert in Monegasque law, but I am sure that in many other countries they would have shrugged it off and said that it is a waste of taxpayers money and judges are overloaded with work thus don't have time for silly matters like this. Maybe Monaco judges are underworked seeing that the real criminals that actually need to go to prison get away with it as HObbes Melville trial has proved. Thanks to princely government btw.

yes , they acted with Alberts approval, and about monegasque justice, remember his 12 july 07 speech about justice, monegasque justice had some bad article on websites and newspapers... not in Monaco.

[lckc571]

Originally Posted by paca

It is not a question of IF. [...] The smartest thing IMO to do would be of Albert to give an immediate pardon and ask for him to be given his job back, saying that he is sure that the offendend didn't mean any harm and that he would be fine with a simple excuse and know that it wasn't going to happen again. He should use this opportunity to point out that people are entitle to an oppinion and to voice it, as long as it is appropriate. He should point out to leave cabaret and caricatures to the professionals and say that he personally enjoys it (like in the olden days the jester). Maybe he could encourage sth along the lines, as Monaco does not have this sort of culture which other countries have and which might actually serve as a relief valve and stop the rumour mills. They could actually make fun of all the rumours that are going around and which are way more harmful then rednose pics as they do hurt people without reason.

Hello,
You are completely right, Paca, Albert has to forgive...
Without falling either in the domain religion, I found this site, a reflection on the forgiveness, certains sentences are sensible. Réflexions sur le pardon (I'm sorry but this site is in french)
here some exemples

" The forgiveness is the only way, both at the personal level and at the collective level, allowing to break the dialectic of the violence and to reconstruct the persons and their relations "
"One of the characteristics of the forgiveness is also its absence of limits as for the gravity of the forgiven faults : he is indeed situated at once in the unforgivable."

an another exemple of the site

"The forgiveness is for me, in this world of violence, a word of break, which is in itself madness, immoderation, but which only allows to go out of the gearing of the vengeance and of the logic of crimes, of repairs and punishments. The grace is the only alternative in the absurd. However the forgiveness is a " narrow door ", a requiring road, which must be crossed in any free access and in any humility. "

Some sentences that PA could indeed meditate. When we think that :

he is a vice-president of the foundation Princess grace of Monaco : The Princesse-Grâce-de-Monaco foundation is an international work of charity with charitable, cultural and philanthropic vocation created in 1964 by prince Rainier III of Monaco and princess Grace of Monaco. Since the death of princess Grâce in 1982, the foundation is chaired by princess Caroline of Monaco, prince Albert by assuring
(insuring) the vice-presidency.

he is also a honorary member of the International Institute of Humanitarian right

That all year, Monaco organizes charity galas that the image of the generosity, the kindness, is largely mediatized and that it is incapable to forgive.

The greatness of a " man indeed " is not calculated among won lawsuits... but the greatness of a man confronts in what we shall hold of him, the positive imprint whom he will leave in the history and of the concordance between his ideas and his acts...
Lckc571

[sandsla]

Originally Posted by Glistening Seas

oh i had nooo idea that monaco handled 60 percent of financials in the EU. however, it's obvious the shady things everyone used to talk about "must have" been cleared up otherwise the EU would have "never" let Monaco into the EU. So, i think Monaco has/is moved/moving out the the "sunny place for shady people" image that everyone talked about. PA education is world class so he "must" know a thing or two about finances "with or without the red nose" i really don't think that Monaco's financial future or his future in the EU is something that Monaco or he needs to worry about as long as they keep moving out of that "sunny place for shady people" reputation they had acquired.

I am not exactly sure of this, I think Monaco has a relationship with the EU but is not a member of the EU. And since Monaco is in a unique political situation being a monarchy with a very good economy - considering it really has little natural resources. I think it's better that thay are not part of the E.U., which might be able to handcuff Albert's power & position some? They have been after Monaco, as far as transparency issues go. I think Albert is trying here w/o caving, which I think is smart. I think Albert is intellectually smart, although I think Albert only has a B.A., and he did work in N.Y. & Paris after that, it's the education he got from his father where he has probably learned the most.

There are a lot of people who are intelligent, but if they react out of emotion, it shows you have lost it & you are not reacting out of a sense of reason. Women have to be even more careful in the business world, because men love to see if they can get women rattled and emotional and use it as ammunition against them (smart women never take the bait!). I think some people might think the jury is still out on Albert's emotional I.Q.? Anyway, I hope he does have it together, and is above reacting to everything, and knows to choose his battles wisely. Those that oppose him, I think might enjoy too much seeing Albert react to trivial matters, especially if they are gunning for him now in other areas. (JMO)

I did not see the cartoon and I do not know Monaco's laws regarding free speech against the monarch, perhaps Albert just doesn't want to set a precedent for something that might be more damaging in the future. Although, it seems anyone could have run the photo of him in the clown nose with a witty enough caption w/o getting in trouble for it. Since he did actually pose for a camara with a clown nose on at one time. He might would want to let the guy of with just a warning? I don't know the details, but this kind of attention to it, seems a bit over the top and not great press for him.

[lckc571]

Originally Posted by sandsla

I did not see the cartoon and I do not know Monaco's laws regarding free speech against the monarch, perhaps Albert just doesn't want to set a precedent for something that might be more damaging in the future. Although, it seems anyone could have run the photo of him in the clown nose with a witty enough caption w/o getting in trouble for it. Since he did actually pose for a camara with a clown nose on at one time. He might would want to let the guy of with just a warning? I don't know the details, but this kind of attention to it, seems a bit over the top and not great press for him.

yes he poses with red nose
http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/a...rt/1735390.jpg
http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/a...rt/1735385.jpg
lckc571

[goody7058]

Albert make a joke that it of red nose but he didn't insult anybody.

[sandsla]

Originally Posted by goody7058

Albert make a joke that it of red nose but he didn't insult anybody.

No, (but as I said in one of my earlier posts), most politicians would have known better and not made themselves such an easy mark. I know he was just having some fun in the photo, but it was a bit naive on his part, to think no one would see the obvious opportunity to make him the butt of a joke or give anyone any ideas? It could be seen that he invited it, even though it was not intentional on his part. I can't imagine his opposers would get a lot of traction out of it regardless. Ordinarily, it probably would have been a none issue with him. It's just bad timing since he is feeling some heat at the moment and he &/or his people are feeling a little overly sensitive just now. I think he should not worry about it too much, I'm sure he will pull through whatever he is having to deal with currently. It's probably good he is going through this early on, he will probably gain some confidence from this in the end, and that will serve him in the future. (JMO)