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  #641  
Old 09-21-2016, 01:29 PM
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The succession now is limited to the legitimate/legitimatized descendants of Rainier III - or Albert, Caroline, Stephanie, and their descendants (with some exceptions).

If Albert were to die, then the succession would become his legitimate/legitimatized descendants - or Jacques and Gabriella. Everyone else in the succession would be removed from the succession.

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Originally Posted by Lee-Z View Post
Purely theoretical, but should P.Albert and P.Charlene divorce and P.Albert remarry the mother of his daughter Jazmin (or his son's mother for that matter).... would Jazmin then be elligible to be in the line of succession?

Jazmin is ineligible because of the nature of the affair that lead to her conception - her mother was still married to another man, so she can't be legitimatized under Monegasque law.

If Albert were to marry Alexandre's mother, though, not only would Alexandre be in the line of succession but he would also be above Jacques and Gabriella (as he's male and older).
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  #642  
Old 09-10-2017, 05:23 PM
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Some persons are taking their wishes for the reality as we are saying in my country.

Albert is married with Charlene and the heredditary prince is Jacques and the princess Gabriella is the spare and second in linie.

Albert is not fool
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  #643  
Old 11-07-2017, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Denville View Post
THe law is still that if the Monarch has not got an heir, the state woudl be annexed to France?
That WAS true as a condition of a treaty that was signed after the first world war. However, a new treaty was formed between France and Monaco in 2002: It says that even if there are no heirs to the throne when the reigning Prince dies, Monaco remains a sovereign nation.
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  #644  
Old 11-07-2017, 11:10 AM
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Yes, exactly. One of the many achievements of his late Serene Highness Rainier III. Probably the most clever and skilled ruler in the Principality's very long history.
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  #645  
Old 11-07-2017, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post
Yes, exactly. One of the many achievements of his late Serene Highness Rainier III. Probably the most clever and skilled ruler in the Principality's very long history.
Yes! Monaco's sovereignty was everything to him. As long as he could ensure that ... Just that alone is reason to call him a great monarch, but of course there are many reasons.
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  #646  
Old 12-30-2019, 07:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Norland View Post
I don’t know which thread to post this. I saw from another blog a new picture of Prince Albert with Nichole Coste. Just wondering-on a hypothetical divorce, if PA marries Nicole would it mean that Alexandre will have precedence over Jacques at the throne?

Feel free to transfer this question to the correct thread.

There seems to be no legislation which concretely addresses this potential situation. As in other European countries, article 226 of the Monegasque civil code (which can be read on Légimonaco) legitimates children upon their parents marrying, so I suppose that under the present law, he would.

But Britain, where children under civil law are also legitimated upon their parents marrying, has enacted legislation which declares that legitimation will not affect the succession to the crown or peerages. In a hypothetical situation where Prince Albert wished to divorce his wife and marry the mother of one of his older children, I think it is likely that he would follow Britain's example and make changes to the house law and/or constitution to clarify that legitimated children are excluded from the succession to the crown, which would preserve the expectations of Jacques and Gabriella.



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Originally Posted by titiromi View Post
Well I think Alexandre won’t be legitimate because Albert would need to seek for the religious annulment of his marriage to Charlène. The same thing happened to the Casiraghi, they weren’t born legitimate and were excluded from the succession until the religious annulment of their mother’s marriage to Philippe Junot.
Can you refer me to the article of the civil code which makes civil legitimacy dependent on religious legitimacy?
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  #647  
Old 12-30-2019, 07:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
There seems to be no legislation which concretely addresses this potential situation. As in other European countries, article 226 of the Monegasque civil code (which can be read on Légimonaco) legitimates children upon their parents marrying, so I suppose that under the present law, he would.

But Britain, where children under civil law are also legitimated upon their parents marrying, has enacted legislation which declares that legitimation will not affect the succession to the crown or peerages. In a hypothetical situation where Prince Albert wished to divorce his wife and marry the mother of one of his older children, I think it is likely that he would follow Britain's example and make changes to the house law and/or constitution to clarify that legitimated children are excluded from the succession to the crown, which would preserve the expectations of Jacques and Gabriella.





Can you refer me to the article of the civil code which makes civil legitimacy dependent on religious legitimacy?
I don’t think the civil code would rule on the succession of the princily family anyway, as per article 9 of the Constitution, Catholicism is the state religion and catholicism doesn’t recognise children born from civilly married couple when one of them is still religiously married to an other.

The constitution only refers to legitimacy (article 10) but doesn’t explain if the legitimacy must be civil or religious.

According to this french article from the serious journal «*Le parisien*»
«*Caroline married for a second time civilly with the entrepreneur Stefano Casiraghi in 1983 at the Palais de Monaco. Together they have three children, Andrea, Charlotte and Pierre. Their father died brutally in a motorboating accident in 1990. These children from this second marriage were recognized as legitimate in the eyes of the Church by Pope John Paul II in 1993.*»

https://www.google.fr/amp/www.lepari...13-3420819.php
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  #648  
Old 12-30-2019, 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted by titiromi View Post
I don’t think the civil code would rule on the succession of the princily family anyway, as per article 9 of the Constitution, Catholicism is the state religion and catholicism doesn’t recognise children born from civilly married couple when one of them is still religiously married to an other.

The constitution only refers to legitimacy (article 10) but doesn’t explain if the legitimacy must be civil or religious.

According to this french article from the serious journal «*Le parisien*»
«*Caroline married for a second time civilly with the entrepreneur Stefano Casiraghi in 1983 at the Palais de Monaco. Together they have three children, Andrea, Charlotte and Pierre. Their father died brutally in a motorboating accident in 1990. These children from this second marriage were recognized as legitimate in the eyes of the Church by Pope John Paul II in 1993.*»

https://www.google.fr/amp/www.lepari...13-3420819.php
Thank you very much!

I think, however, that the recognition under article 226 of the civil code of a different basis for legitimacy than that used by the Catholic Church signals that the laws of Monaco do not necessarily conform to the laws of the Catholic Church, in spite of article 9 of the constitution. An even clearer demonstration is the recognition of civil marriage and divorce under the civil laws of Monaco, but not in the eyes of the church.
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  #649  
Old 12-30-2019, 07:44 AM
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Just to move some posts which are applicable to the subject of this thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
The house laws state:
Article 24.

Without prejudice to the provisions of article 21, the marriage of a member of the Sovereign Family contracted without the authorization of the Reigning Prince excludes the one who contracted the marriage from the order of succession as well as his or her descendants.

[…]

The authorization according to the first paragraph is issued by Sovereign Decision.

Ordonnance Souveraine n° 5.344 du 2 juin 2015 portant statuts de la Famille Souveraine / Journal 8228 / Année 2015 / Journaux / Accueil - Journal de Monaco

I cannot find an ordinance in the Journal de Monaco or a public statement suggesting that a Sovereign Decision was issued ahead of the marriages of the Casiraghis or Louis Ducruet to allow them to remain in the order of succession. Is anybody aware of one?
Quote:
Originally Posted by melina premiere View Post
Albert said in the book about him that his nephews did not ask him is they could marry, He said they asked him advices not else,
In the constitution if a member of the officialy family would marry without the permission of the sovereign, he would lost his place in the line of sucession
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Originally Posted by Florestane View Post
I presume the book is the one that was released for the Prince's 60th birthday?
Quote:
Originally Posted by melina premiere View Post
Yes, it is the last book about the prince Albert for his 60th anniversary

For Andréa, Caroline was ok for a wedding, Albert had no reasons to say no
For Pierre he married with Beatrice , he is 8th in the line of sucession, no chance to be a future ruler
For Charlotte, she is 11th in the line of sucession, no Reason to say no, when she was with gad El Maleh, he was received at the palace with the family, he was present when the twins were presented to the people of Monaco , in january 2015

From the posts above I am still not clear on whether a Sovereign Decision granting authorization under the house law was issued or not. The website of the Monegasque monarchy provides no clarification about whether the Casiraghis and Louis Ducruet remain in the line of succession or not.
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  #650  
Old 12-30-2019, 08:48 AM
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Jacques is officially the hereditary prince of Monaco, his parents are married , Gabriella is the second in the line of sucession

For Alexandre and Jazmin Grace, they have no rights of sucession , their parents were no married as Raphael son of Charlotte Casiraghi and Camille Gottlieb, their parents are not married

Andrea, Charlotte Pierre casiraghi, Louis Ducruet and Pauline are still in the line of sucession, If their parents had a civil wedding , the children are legitimate
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  #651  
Old 12-30-2019, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by melina premiere View Post
Andrea, Charlotte Pierre casiraghi, Louis Ducruet and Pauline are still in the line of sucession, If their parents had a civil wedding , the children are legitimate
Andrea, Charlotte and Pierre Casiraghi, and Louis Ducruet, are married themselves. Under Article 24 of the Grimaldi house law, if their marriages were contracted without the legal authorization of the Reigning Prince, then they (and their descendants) will have been excluded by their marriages from the line of succession. (Naturally, exclusion from the line of succession does not affect legitimacy.)

Art. 24.

Sans préjudice des dispositions de l’article 21, le mariage d’un membre de la Famille Souveraine contracté sans l’autorisation du Prince Régnant emporte exclusion de l’ordre successoral, tant pour celui qui a contracté ce mariage que pour ses descendants.

Néanmoins, en cas de dissolution du mariage et en l’absence d’enfant issu de ce dernier, l’héritier qui l’a contracté recouvre sa place dans l’ordre successoral si aucune succession n’est intervenue à la date où la dissolution est devenue définitive.

L’autorisation prescrite en vertu du premier alinéa est délivrée par Décision Souveraine.

Translation:

Art. 24.

Without prejudice to the provisions of article 21, the marriage of a member of the Sovereign Family contracted without the authorization of the Reigning Prince excludes the one who contracted the marriage from the order of succession as well as his or her descendants.

[…]

The authorization according to the first paragraph is issued by Sovereign Decision.

Ordonnance Souveraine n° 5.344 du 2 juin 2015 portant statuts de la Famille Souveraine / Journal 8228 / Année 2015 / Journaux / Accueil - Journal de Monaco


As I said, I cannot find an ordinance in the Journal de Monaco or a public statement suggesting that a Sovereign Decision was issued.
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  #652  
Old 12-30-2019, 09:28 AM
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I think there was no need to make a statement about the wedding of Andrea, Pierre, Louis and Charlotte, they were not the children of the sovereign, Albert said yes to the weddings , they married and they are still on the line of the sucession, Andrea is4th on the line of sucession, Pierre is 8th on the line of sucession, Charlotte is 11th on the line of sucession , Louis is 15th on the line of sucession
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  #653  
Old 12-30-2019, 09:32 AM
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Can you please provide the source confirming that a Sovereign Decision was issued? I cannot find it in the Journal de Monaco, the official website of the monarchy, or in the press.
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  #654  
Old 12-30-2019, 03:13 PM
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No need to have an official statement, they do not need to have an starement about their wedding, they are not the heirs and not the direct children of the sovereign, Albert was present to their wedding and they had a civil wedding in the palace apart Louis who married in the mayor house of Monaco.

Albert said warm words about the wifes of Andrea, Pierre , and Louis
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  #655  
Old 12-30-2019, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by melina premiere View Post
No need to have an official statement, they do not need to have an starement about their wedding, they are not the heirs and not the direct children of the sovereign, Albert was present to their wedding and they had a civil wedding in the palace apart Louis who married in the mayor house of Monaco.

Albert said warm words about the wifes of Andrea, Pierre , and Louis
My questions dealt merely with their possible positions in the line of succession, as indicated in the topic of the thread. I am sure Prince Albert has warm feelings for his nephews and niece and their spouses.

If he wished for them to remain in the line of succession after marrying, he would have needed to issue a Sovereign Decision to legally authorize their marriages, per Article 24 of the house law (refer to the text and translation above: http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums...ml#post2277369). But if it is true that nothing "official" was issued, perhaps he indeed saw no need. The succession is secure with Albert's own legitimate children. That is what happened with Princes Pieter-Christiaan and Floris of Orange-Nassau, van Vollenhoven in the Netherlands.
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  #656  
Old 12-30-2019, 09:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
My questions dealt merely with their possible positions in the line of succession, as indicated in the topic of the thread. I am sure Prince Albert has warm feelings for his nephews and niece and their spouses.

If he wished for them to remain in the line of succession after marrying, he would have needed to issue a Sovereign Decision to legally authorize their marriages, per Article 24 of the house law (refer to the text and translation above: http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums...ml#post2277369). But if it is true that nothing "official" was issued, perhaps he indeed saw no need. The succession is secure with Albert's own legitimate children. That is what happened with Princes Pieter-Christiaan and Floris of Orange-Nassau, van Vollenhoven in the Netherlands.
Pieter-Christian and Floris are in a different category in my opinion as their marriages would actually have to be authorized by a special act of parliament passed by a joint session of the two chambers.

Basically, the princes did. not petition the government to introduce the necessary bill in the joint session. They were then excluded from the line of succession, which would have hsppened anyway when Willem-Alexander ascended the throne as the Netherlands limits the line of succession to relatives of the current monarch up to the third degree of consanguinity only. By the same reason, the children born of their respective marriages would never be in the line of succession either even when Beatrix was still queen since they would be related to her furthermore than the third degree.
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