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  #41  
Old 12-29-2020, 08:27 AM
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I always knew the Princess had a controversial past but never really had any interest in her but all the same it makes for an interesting read.
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  #42  
Old 12-29-2020, 09:09 AM
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Also rather bizarre: 'the world' got to know about her at the funeral of prince Claus when she joined the family in the catacomb for the 'interment'. The others were queen Beatrix, his sons and their wives and his 5 living sisters.

That is bizarre indeed, though not as bizarre as her apparent stalking of the now Prime Minister. Since it involves the PM and was supposedly witnessed by other prominent politicians and people, wouldn't somebody have denied it by now if it wasn't true at all?

I did know about the mafia boss and the married Bosnian politician, though not in any detail. That article was very interesting, thank you!

There is definitely a question as to why she would be involved with such a dangerous criminal. And without knowing for sure what happened, there rather seems to have been a pattern of behavior of getting close to powerful men - even shady ones. With the aim of advancing herself?

What baffles me is that, as a clearly very intelligent person, she thought she could get away with telling lies, when she knew her life would be looked at by an intelligence agency. Or perhaps she merely hoped to delay the discoveries?
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  #43  
Old 12-29-2020, 09:18 AM
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Of course I know the story of what happened to Friso. That really doesn't have anything to do with Mabel's past or why Beatrix would have permitted the marriage.
Ok, in that case I just don't understand who 'they' are in your sentence "For their daughters' sake, I hope they're all happy now."

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I don't think Beatrix's sister's experience would have come into play, either -- the outcome for Friso and Irene was the same in that they were married and lost their places in the succession.
Beatrix knew that forbidding was useless, the outcome would have been the same... And it seems that Beatrix was willing to give her blessing as she was really happy about/impressed by Mabel but unlike most other countries, in the Netherlands, it is not up to the monarch (parent) but to the government and parliament.

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Many people noted at the time of the wedding that Friso didn't seem that enthusiastic about the marriage, so I doubt "forbidding" it would have been a problem for him.
??? Are you truly saying that Friso would just as happily have said good-bye to Mabel after they had been together for several years and he wanted to marry her?! Do you have other evidence than his facial expressions that were completely consistent with how the Netherlands got to know him: i.e., never 'enthusiastic' and rather serious - at least in the public eye.
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  #44  
Old 12-29-2020, 09:20 AM
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Also rather bizarre: 'the world' got to know about her at the funeral of prince Claus when she joined the family in the catacomb for the 'interment'. The others were queen Beatrix, his sons and their wives and his 5 living sisters.
I don’t think she did. Friso walked down with Beatrix, WA with M etc, she might have been at the service but wasn’t sat on the front row.

https://youtu.be/7gVCCNUZfkM
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  #45  
Old 12-29-2020, 09:26 AM
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That is bizarre indeed, though not as bizarre as her apparent stalking of the now Prime Minister. Since it involves the PM and was supposedly witnessed by other prominent politicians and people, wouldn't somebody have denied it by now if it wasn't true at all?

I did know about the mafia boss and the married Bosnian politician, though not in any detail. That article was very interesting, thank you!

There is definitely a question as to why she would be involved with such a dangerous criminal. And without knowing for sure what happened, there rather seems to have been a pattern of behavior of getting close to powerful men - even shady ones. With the aim of advancing herself?

What baffles me is that, as a clearly very intelligent person, she thought she could get away with telling lies, when she knew her life would be looked at by an intelligence agency. Or perhaps she merely hoped to delay the discoveries?
Mabel herself said that she 'never went to bed with him' and immediately distanced herself from Bruinsma when she learned about his criminal dealings (that raises the question why she didn't know previously). I, however, wonder how you get to know and spend (quite some) time with someone like that...

Both Friso and Mabel also denied telling lies, they did admit to 'not telling the whole truth' (i.e. being open about Bruinsma from the start).

I assume that she first met Sacirbey in a work-capacity; and it indeed seems she didn't shy away from but rather moved closer to the powerful - even when shady. Mabel herself stated once that all her relationships with powerful men are interpreted differently because she is a woman and people have a hard time understanding that women can be successful as well.
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  #46  
Old 12-29-2020, 09:29 AM
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I don’t think she did. Friso walked down with Beatrix, WA with M etc, she might have been at the service but wasn’t sat on the front row.

https://youtu.be/7gVCCNUZfkM
The fact is she did; as can also be seen in this video. As she didn't have an official status of course she wasn't seated at the front row (she was seated in the third row) BUT she walked down with the family - she walked next to the youngest of prince Claus's sisters at the end of the small cortege (easily recognizable from the back because of her blond hair).
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  #47  
Old 12-29-2020, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Katymcwaity View Post
I don’t think she did. Friso walked down with Beatrix, WA with M etc, she might have been at the service but wasn’t sat on the front row.

https://youtu.be/7gVCCNUZfkM
The cortège which followed the coffin of the late Prince Claus into the royal vaults under the New Church in Delft, was formed by six pairs:

1
Prince Friso of the Netherlands & The Queen

2
The Prince of Orange & Princess Máxima of the Netherlands

3
Prince Constantijn & Princess Laurentien of the Netherlands

4
Sigrid Jencquel - von Amsberg & Rixa Ahrends - von Amsberg

5
Barbara Haarhaus - von Amsberg & Baroness Theda von Friesen - von Amsberg

6
Baroness Christina von der Recke - von Amsberg & Mabel Wisse Smit

This was the first time the public saw Mabel.

Picture: Mabel leaves the New Churh in Delft, escorted by Prince Maurits and Princess Marilène van Oranje-Nassau, van Vollenhoven (cousins to Prince Friso)
https://cdn.businessinsider.nl/wp-co...8291763425.jpg
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  #48  
Old 12-29-2020, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Princess_Eleanor View Post
That is bizarre indeed, though not as bizarre as her apparent stalking of the now Prime Minister. Since it involves the PM and was supposedly witnessed by other prominent politicians and people, wouldn't somebody have denied it by now if it wasn't true at all?

I did know about the mafia boss and the married Bosnian politician, though not in any detail. That article was very interesting, thank you!

There is definitely a question as to why she would be involved with such a dangerous criminal. And without knowing for sure what happened, there rather seems to have been a pattern of behavior of getting close to powerful men - even shady ones. With the aim of advancing herself?

What baffles me is that, as a clearly very intelligent person, she thought she could get away with telling lies, when she knew her life would be looked at by an intelligence agency. Or perhaps she merely hoped to delay the discoveries?
Princess Mabel never "stalked" the Prime Minister. (And the Prime Minister is not exactly a person whom allows to be subjected to stalking anyway). And the stories we have seen popping up about a love affair between Mark Rutte and Princess Mabel most likely have been met with absolutely hilarious laughter by the Prime Minister (who is never ever seriously linked to any possible partner of whichever possible gender anyway) and this strong, independent, influential and extremely wealthy woman.

The Prime Minister greets Princess Mabel: https://i0.wp.com/robscholtemuseum.n...Shownieuws.png
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  #49  
Old 12-29-2020, 10:52 AM
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I can't really remember but was there much public disapproval of the Johan Friso -Mabel engagement?
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  #50  
Old 12-29-2020, 11:00 AM
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I assume that she first met Sacirbey in a work-capacity; and it indeed seems she didn't shy away from but rather moved closer to the powerful - even when shady. Mabel herself stated once that all her relationships with powerful men are interpreted differently because she is a woman and people have a hard time understanding that women can be successful as well.
I am not quite sure if Sacirbey was considered 'shady' at that time. From what I remembered it was the opposite. He was presented as some sort of hero in the Western press. The shady business dealings were revealed much later, around the year 2001. At the time of the Dayton agreements Mabel was only 26 y/o, just starting out in her carreer. It is not overly surprising that she would be impressed by him.
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  #51  
Old 12-29-2020, 11:33 AM
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I am not quite sure if Sacirbey was considered 'shady' at that time. From what I remembered it was the opposite. He was presented as some sort of hero in the Western press. The shady business dealings were revealed much later, around the year 2001. At the time of the Dayton agreements Mabel was only 26 y/o, just starting out in her carreer. It is not overly surprising that she would be impressed by him.
You are right. Sacirbey was known as 'important' but not necessarily as shady at that point. Nonetheless, cozying up with influential people - especially when they are married is not behavior I would want to condone. And I do think Mabel knew what she was doing; she was (and is) smart enough...
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  #52  
Old 12-29-2020, 11:34 AM
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I can't really remember but was there much public disapproval of the Johan Friso -Mabel engagement?
Not immediately at their engagement but in the months following their engagement their was sufficient disapproval for the government to decide not to even prepare a 'permission law' for their marriage (much to the dismay of the queen; who didn't see the need for approval of her nephews' marriages but wanted parliamentary approval of her sons' marriages).
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  #53  
Old 12-29-2020, 11:59 AM
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Back then Mabel was an eightteen years old student when she met the criminal Klaas Bruinsma. Connection between the two was the world of yachting, sailing and regattas, in which Mabel's family was active. Mr Bruinsma owned a half dozen of ships. If we have to believe the rumours, Mr Bruinsma was head over heels in love with Mabel, an exceptionally smart and gifted blonde studente.

Mabel was not the only one exceptionally smart and gifted blonde studente: Mabel's very bestie (and later one of her bridal maids of honour) Willemine Verloop, with whom she later would establish War Child Netherlands and with whom she later worked in the European Council for Peace in the Balkans, was with her at Mr Bruinsma's yachts.

At a certain moment Mr Bruinsma was one of Europe's biggest soft drugs dealers. He used to stay from the one five star hotel to the other five star hotel, or in one of his yachts. In 1991 Mr Bruinsma was shot in front of the Hilton Hotel in Amsterdam.

The friendship with Mr Bruinsma faded as both ladies, then 20-21 years old, graduated from the University of Amsterdam and left the Netherlands (both besties Mabel and Willemine went to New York).

We need to keep in mind that it was about two student girls invited by a charmeur from the same posh milieu, all the three from the same posh region even, frequenting the same yachting, hockey and polo milieus with which they grew up.

When Prince Friso met Mabel, a decade later, she was so far in her stellar career that the encounters with Mr Bruinsma in her student years were just a detail. But for a marriage with a Prince of the Netherlands a less desirable detail. She chose not to tell she knew Mr Bruinsma. And that was what haunted her. The Prime Minister thought: if you did not tell me this "detail", maybe there are more "details"?

And in a reflex (by hindsight way too hasty) he considered the Government would not offer a Bill of Consent to Parliament. Prince Friso then let the Prime Minister know he would not seek permission for his intended marriage, so the Government would not need to offer a Bill anyway.

Klaas Bruinsma: https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-cqatS39Gt...2BBruinsma.png
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  #54  
Old 12-29-2020, 12:28 PM
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When Prince Friso met Mabel, a decade later, she was so far in her stellar career that the encounters with Mr Bruinsma in her student years were just a detail. But for a marriage with a Prince of the Netherlands a less desirable detail. She chose not to tell she knew Mr Bruinsma. And that was what haunted her. The Prime Minister thought: if you did not tell me this "detail", maybe there are more "details"?

And in a reflex (by hindsight way too hasty) he considered the Government would not offer a Bill of Consent to Parliament. Prince Friso then let the Prime Minister know he would not seek permission for his intended marriage, so the Government would not need to offer a Bill anyway.

Klaas Bruinsma: https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-cqatS39Gt...2BBruinsma.png
Mabel did tell Friso about it, so it was a conscious decision of the couple not to disclose that information - neither to the PM nor to the queen if I'm not mistaken.

And Friso's move to let the PM know he didn't seek permission would of course not have happened had there been no controversy - including a PM considering not to offer a Bill of Consent. He was just getting 'ahead of the game'; it's like people suddenly asking to be relieved of their jobs when they are well aware that a dismissal is imminent.
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  #55  
Old 12-29-2020, 12:35 PM
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Mabel did tell Friso about it, so it was a conscious decision of the couple not to disclose that information - neither to the PM nor to the queen if I'm not mistaken.

And Friso's move to let the PM know he didn't seek permission would of course not have happened had there been no controversy - including a PM considering not to offer a Bill of Consent. He was just getting 'ahead of the game'; it's like people suddenly asking to be relieved of their jobs when they are well aware that a dismissal is imminent.
Yes, of course. Like when Princess Irene informed the Government she would not request permission for her marriage to Prince Carlos Hugo de Bourbon de Parme.

Both were "elegant escapes". No formal decision was made in the Council of Ministers. No Bill was offered to Parliament. Any request did not reach the Council of Ministers.

The painful thing was the clumsy handling by the then Prime Minister. While the other Prime Ministers (Irene, Christina) simply took note of the no request, Mr Balkenende blabbed he would not support a request by Prince Friso. With this the "elegant escape" was tarnished.
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  #56  
Old 12-29-2020, 01:23 PM
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The fact is she did; as can also be seen in this video. As she didn't have an official status of course she wasn't seated at the front row (she was seated in the third row) BUT she walked down with the family - she walked next to the youngest of prince Claus's sisters at the end of the small cortege (easily recognizable from the back because of her blond hair).
Apologies, I was indeed wrong! And yes, a strange way to introduce someone to the public.
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  #57  
Old 12-29-2020, 01:32 PM
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Apologies, I was indeed wrong! And yes, a strange way to introduce someone to the public.
I don't think they wanted to 'introduce her to the public'; but I am sure the family wanted her to be with them (and especially with Friso) at that intimate moment in which they had to say their final goodbyes - and the risk of it getting known did not withhold them from doing so. It wasn't announced that she would be part of the cortege but of course it was found out who that young lady that unexpectedly joined the closest family was. Initially, she was described as a 'close family friend' but that's what they said about all the girl friends of the various princes at some point.

Note that for example Anita and Aimée were also present at the funeral of prince Bernhard [Dec 2004] (I don't think they were at Juliana's [March 2004] or if they were that was well hidden) while not yet engaged [February 2005]. However, their first 'appearance' was at the christening of princess Catharina-Amalia [June 2004], so it was known that they were dating Pieter-Christiaan and Floris.
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  #58  
Old 12-29-2020, 01:35 PM
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Apologies, I was indeed wrong! And yes, a strange way to introduce someone to the public.
It was not meant as an introduction. She just joined the family into the royal vaults. As a by-effect the unknown blonde lady became known. But she was the companion of Prince Friso and was reportedly close to his late father, having spent many hours with him. Earlier that year she probably was present in one of the many festivities around the Royal Wedding 02-02-02 (WA and Máxima) but no one was aware of any connection to the royal family.
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  #59  
Old 12-29-2020, 10:28 PM
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The painful thing was the clumsy handling by the then Prime Minister. While the other Prime Ministers (Irene, Christina) simply took note of the no request, Mr Balkenende blabbed he would not support a request by Prince Friso. With this the "elegant escape" was tarnished.
I have to respectfully disagree -- it was Friso and Mabel who were clumsy, not Balkenende.

Friso could have said he was not seeking permission back in June 2003 when they announced the engagement. He also could have announced that he wasn't seeking permission in October 2003, when the security investigators first re-interviewed Mabel, after they found that she had not been forthcoming in her earlier interviews. Had he announced then that he did not plan to seek permission, the investigation would have gone away before it became public, and the PM wouldn't have had to make any statement about refusing to put a bill forward.

Friso later said in an interview that he would have preferred to stay in the succession, so it wasn't as if he was in a situation like his Aunt Christina, who chose to leave for personal reasons.

And, don't forget that Friso and Mabel were still trying to spin the situation years later. Remember the flap in 2007 when they were caught trying to edit Mabel's past out of her Wikipedia entry?
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