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  #61  
Old 06-01-2020, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Thank you to Marengo, lula, Somebody, carlota, Blog Real, and all others who have been summarizing the numerous reports from Belgium and Spain.


It is somewhat confusing that the prince acknowledges not respecting all quarantine measures while Ms. Ortiz's family denies that any regulations were broken. Are the two parties addressing different sets of rules?
My take is that Victoria's family wanted to communicate that the 15-people rule wasn't broken. They said the 27 people were divided over two meetings with 12 and 15 each. This, however, doesn't make sense, as there were 27 'contact persons' of Joachim and I assume that Victoria was also present at both meetings; so that would add up to 24 (10+13+Victoria).

Joachim on the other hand was supposed to quarantine which he clearly didn't do (and her family surely knew about it); and I also wonder whether him being a prince made a difference in him being able to travel from Belgium to Spain; or that anyone else that could come up with an internship would have the same opportunity to travel.

Quote:
I agree that his parents were surely aware of their son's travel to Spain, but I am not sure about the inference that they were aware of the reunion party/parties held by his girlfriend's family.

Given their own sense of duty and years of dutiful representation on behalf of the monarchy, it would come as a surprise to me if Princess Astrid and Prince Lorenz condoned ignoring quarantine rules, or the spirit of the rules. The family is clearly close, but it is surely at least a possibility that the prince may have chosen to reunite with his partner even if his parents counselled against it.
I agree that they most likely didn't know about the 'welcome parties'; but I would think that they would be aware that he was planning to travel to his girlfriend immediately (instead of quarantining in Madrid). And I still have doubts about the reason that was given about him taking an internship... If my doubt is justified, I assume they were aware of him not having been in an internship so far and just coming up with it as a reason to travel.

Nonetheless, of course, Joachim himself is responsible. At his age, his parents may have warned against it but they cannot prohibit him from arranging these things himself.
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  #62  
Old 06-01-2020, 12:37 PM
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I think they knew he was going back to Spain to be with his girlfriend I doubt they knew about any parties and probably thought at most there were having a dinner with all those already living in the residence he was travelling to.

To be fair it's not up to Astrid and Lorenz to know the laws of Spain even during Covid, they can only hope as any parent would, that their adult son would follow the rules and no doubt they believed he was.

There is not much more that can be said, he has apologised, said he will accept the consequences, I don't think there is more he can do.

Astrid can be seen here during her visit today, which I give her credit for still going ahead with.
https://mobile.twitter.com/WDehandsc...92535237885955
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  #63  
Old 06-01-2020, 05:33 PM
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Good news that the prince is feeling better. Princess Astrid replied affermative when a reporter asked her if she was tested on the virus too. The reporter used the informal 'jullie' instead of the formal 'u' (vous), which is of an informality that I would not even imagine in the Netherlands.
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  #64  
Old 06-01-2020, 05:50 PM
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I'm glad that Joachim apologised but as a disabled person at risk to the virus, it angers me when people act so selfishly in the first place. As a Belgian prince he should have known better.
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  #65  
Old 06-02-2020, 04:01 AM
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An apology simply won't do, he has to pay the price, as any other person who has broken quarantine rules during these times, also if he has some kind of diplomatic passport/special travel permission, he should lose it permanently.

How embarrassing this is for Astrid and Lorenz and how disappointing it must be for his uncle the King, whose family had been doing such an stellar work during the pandemic, just for his nephew to throw it in his face.
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  #66  
Old 06-02-2020, 10:59 AM
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Bad Start for his private and business Life !
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  #67  
Old 06-02-2020, 01:35 PM
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His parents Princess Astrid and Archduke Lorenz must be mortified up until this their kids have had a good image and publicity.
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  #68  
Old 06-03-2020, 01:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marengo View Post
Good news that the prince is feeling better. Princess Astrid replied affermative when a reporter asked her if she was tested on the virus too. The reporter used the informal 'jullie' instead of the formal 'u' (vous), which is of an informality that I would not even imagine in the Netherlands.


Jullie is plural. Jij (informal) or u (formal) is singular.
There is no formal plural.
As Lorenz was also present, the reporter was informing after both him and Astrid, I guess.
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  #69  
Old 06-03-2020, 04:25 PM
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Is that Flemish? In Dutch from the Netherlands the plural and the singular are both ‘u’.
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  #70  
Old 06-03-2020, 04:34 PM
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Prince Joachim of Belgium - News and Pictures, Part 1

Indeed you are right. It can be used in plural.
But in Flemish it sounds very oldfashioned. Jullie is certainly not considered impolite.
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  #71  
Old 06-03-2020, 09:44 PM
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Originally Posted by maria-olivia View Post
The Prince asked Pieter De Crem to allow him to go to Spain for his business.
Which kind of Plane ?
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Originally Posted by leidi View Post
also if he has some kind of diplomatic passport/special travel permission, he should lose it permanently.
On the Belgian end of his journey, it doesn't seem as if he would have required special permission. The Belgian restrictions in force then already categorized "Journeys to a partner who does not live under the same roof", as well as "Journeys abroad in the context of professional activities", as "essential reasons to travel abroad" (see "Is it still allowed to travel abroad from Belgium?"). So with or without the internship, departing from Belgium for the reason of seeing his girlfriend would seem to be allowed under Belgian law.

On the Spanish end, the restrictions were stricter: Only a legal spouse or registered partner would have qualified as grounds for travel. I suppose that is why the Royal Palace and the Ortiz Martínez-Sagrera family both emphasized the internship in their statements. (And presumably they had no justification to offer for his disregard of the 14-day quarantine.)


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Originally Posted by Blog Real View Post
Prime Minister Wilmès: "Prince Joachim apologized and expressed his willingness to accept any sanction. That's normal. Case closed."

The Prime Minister reopened with Joachim's mother, Princess Astrid, recently opened the Atomium in Brussels.
https://mobile.twitter.com/WDehandsc...83065032171520

"No comment, please, " said Princess Astrid at the reopening of the Atomium after being pressed with questions about her son, Prince Joachim. He was discredited by attending a party in Spain and then testing positive for the corona virus.
https://mobile.twitter.com/WDehandsc...81319715168256
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Originally Posted by Heavs View Post
I was thinking in the UK if Peter Phillips or Zara Tindall had done this it would certainly not be "case closed" as far as the media went, but Belgium might be different in this regard.
I think the national governments of both countries have a culture of protecting the monarchy from criticism. The controversy around Joachim's brother a few years ago had much less grave consequences, but it is another example of the government providing cover to the Royal Family.


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Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
My take is that Victoria's family wanted to communicate that the 15-people rule wasn't broken. They said the 27 people were divided over two meetings with 12 and 15 each. This, however, doesn't make sense, as there were 27 'contact persons' of Joachim and I assume that Victoria was also present at both meetings; so that would add up to 24 (10+13+Victoria).
Good observation. Even if Prince Joachim had been the sole individual present on both occasions, it would add to 25 contacts, not 27. If the figures counted the contacts only and excluded the prince hiimself, the second gathering (at 16) would remain a violation of the law.

It will be interesting to see if more details of the internship emerge in the months ahead.


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Originally Posted by maria-olivia View Post
Bad Start for his private and business Life !
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Originally Posted by An Ard Ri View Post
His parents Princess Astrid and Archduke Lorenz must be mortified up until this their kids have had a good image and publicity.
I agree, especially as he has otherwise kept a low profile. I imagine this news will be remembered in the press coverage when/if the couple formally announce an engagement, particularly in view of the public involvement of Ms. Ortiz and her family.
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  #72  
Old 06-05-2020, 07:15 AM
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At the party in Cordoba, where Prince Joachim was invited last Tuesday, there were no 27 guests. This is the conclusion of the Spanish national police (El Cuerpo Nacional de Policía) after investigation. There were about 15. Meetings of up to 15 people are allowed in Spain.
https://mobile.twitter.com/WDehandsc...28793692659714

A second infection was identified among the guests of the party in Cordoba, where Prince Joachim was present (and after that he was tested positive for the corona virus). This is reported by the Junta de Andalucía, the council of the Spanish autonomous community of Andalusia.
https://mobile.twitter.com/WDehandsc...56492192645120
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  #73  
Old 06-05-2020, 07:56 AM
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Thank you for the article! It seems then that the sole law-breaker was Prince Joachim (and perhaps the other sick guest), and Victoria Ortiz and her family are cleared. That also explains why the prince apologized while the Ortiz Martínez-Sagrera family defended themselves in the media.

I didn't realize that the (first?) party was held in honor of Ms. Ortiz's 30th birthday. I wonder why earlier reports characterized it as a family reunion or welcome party for the prince? It may have served as all three, I suppose.

I also wonder whether Prince Joachim violated the quarantine law because he wanted to attend his girlfriend's birthday, but surely he could afford to simply depart Belgium two weeks earlier. His girlfriend's birthday falls on the same day every year...
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  #74  
Old 06-05-2020, 08:36 AM
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Rules change all the time, so I'm not sure that both Belgium and Spain allowed travel between the countries two weeks earlier.

The second infection could very well be because of Joachim; and if that person didn't know that you are ill (and had no symptoms) I don't think he/she broke any rules. Unlike Joachim who was supposed to be in quarantine for 14 days after traveling to Spain.
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  #75  
Old 06-05-2020, 09:19 AM
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Even if he didn't break any laws/rules the Prince was rather reckless and ill advised given the terrible death tolls in both Spain and Belgium.
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  #76  
Old 06-05-2020, 09:45 AM
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It would not surprise me if the Ortiz girl and her family decide to distance themselves from the prince during the fallout/aftermath resulting from his selfish and immature behavior.

This is NOT the kind of publicity that wealthy and well connected people like to draw.
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  #77  
Old 06-05-2020, 09:56 AM
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Rules change all the time, so I'm not sure that both Belgium and Spain allowed travel between the countries two weeks earlier.
It does get confusing indeed. AFAIK Family visits abroad were only allowed from last weekend. But exceptions for essensial work abroad have been made all along. I can't see how an internship is considered essensial but apparently it is.
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  #78  
Old 06-05-2020, 10:00 AM
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It would not surprise me if the Ortiz girl and her family decide to distance themselves from the prince during the fallout/aftermath resulting from his selfish and immature behavior.

This is NOT the kind of publicity that wealthy and well connected people like to draw.
That would be quite dishonest and unfair imho. They were fully in on his plans as they most likely created the 'internship' that allowed Joachim to come and visit Victoria which surely was the wish of both of them, so they are at least complicit. Had they wanted him to quarantine they should have told him and not invite him to their parties but for example have him stay in a 'separate part' of the house for the first two weeks.

While I'm sure they are unhappy about what unfolded, they are also to blame but were able to somewhat talk themselves out of it by stating that their meeting had 'about 15' (which most likely means slightly more than 15 or it would have been stated differently) and have Joachim apologize. So, while this story will surely come up at their wedding (which I hope will still take place at some point), it wouldn't seem reasonable to break off a relationship of several years because the plan you came up with or at least agreed on backfired.
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  #79  
Old 06-05-2020, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by An Ard Ri View Post
Even if he didn't break any laws/rules the Prince was rather reckless and ill advised given the terrible death tolls in both Spain and Belgium.
The prince didn't break any Belgian laws, but he broke the Spanish law requiring arrivals from abroad to quarantine for 14 days, instead taking the train to another province the same day he arrived at the airport and attending parties hosted by his girlfriend's family over the next two days. Hence he apologized specifically for "not respecting all quarantine measures", and his apology was issued in Spanish through his lawyer in Spain.


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Originally Posted by Marengo View Post
It does get confusing indeed. AFAIK Family visits abroad were only allowed from last weekend. But exceptions for essensial work abroad have been made all along. I can't see how an internship is considered essensial but apparently it is.
Family yes, but "partner" visits already were allowed at the time Prince Joachim departed the country. See the archived version of the Belgian official regulations in post #71.

Journeys "in the context of professional activities" were also allowed (and unlike partner visits, these were also allowed by Spain).


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Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post
It would not surprise me if the Ortiz girl and her family decide to distance themselves from the prince during the fallout/aftermath resulting from his selfish and immature behavior.

This is NOT the kind of publicity that wealthy and well connected people like to draw.
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Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
That would be quite dishonest and unfair imho. They were fully in on his plans as they most likely created the 'internship' that allowed Joachim to come and visit Victoria which surely was the wish of both of them, so they are at least complicit. Had they wanted him to quarantine they should have told him and not invite him to their parties but for example have him stay in a 'separate part' of the house for the first two weeks.
Is there evidence linking the Ortiz Martínez-Sagrera family to the internship? In view of their wealth it is plausible, but I'm not sure a royal prince who has spent time living in Spain would find it difficult to find employment there even without the intervention of his girlfriend's family.

As for his violating quarantine, perhaps he gave the family the impression that he had already finished his quarantine in Madrid?
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Old 06-05-2020, 11:02 AM
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Is there evidence linking the Ortiz Martínez-Sagrera family to the internship? In view of their wealth it is plausible, but I'm not sure a royal prince who has spent time living in Spain would find it difficult to find employment there even without the intervention of his girlfriend's family.
There is no evidence but what other company would offer an INTERNSHIP (not a job) to someone who had been working for years? In what context? Etc. So, yes, it could be that he arranged it with another employer but it seems more likely that her family was involved.

Quote:
As for his violating quarantine, perhaps he gave the family the impression that he had already finished his quarantine in Madrid?
I don't believe for one moment that Victoria thought that he had been in Madrid for 2 weeks, so I would sincerely hope that they didn't pretend he did to the rest of the family. That would be a huge betrayal of trust of both of them.
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