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  #201  
Old 09-17-2019, 07:04 AM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theroyalfly View Post
I disagree. 'Prince/sse de Habsbourg-Lorraine' is a legal title in Belgian nobility. Actually both sons of Archduke Carl Ludwig of Austria and Princess Yolande of Ligne namely Rudolf and Carl Christian were incorporated into Belgian nobility.

When Archduke Rudolf married the Belgian aristocrat Baroness Hélčne de Villenfagne de Vogelsanck in 1976 and taking up residence in Belgium thereafter, it only took two years for King Baudouin to incorporate him and his children and male-line descendants werewith the hereditary title 'Prince/sse de Habsbourg-Lorraine' and the style of Serene Highness in the nobility of Belgium by royal letters patent on 29 May 1978.

In 1982, his younger brother Archduke Carl Christian married King Baudouin's niece Princess Marie Astrid of Luxembourg and a year after, him and his children and male-line descendants were also granted an entry to the Belgian nobility with a hereditary title 'Prince/sse de Habsbourg-Lorraine' and the style of Serene Highness.

Therefore, legally, both Rudolf and Carl Christian and their children and male-line descendants are HSH 'Prince/sse de Habsbourg-Lorraine' in Belgium.

Source: de Badts de Cugnac, Chantal. Coutant de Saisseval, Guy. Le Petit Gotha. Nouvelle Imprimerie Laballery, Paris 2002
I stand corrected, but isn't "de Habsbourg-Lorraine" a different branch? In a similar case, Anna-Astrid and Maximilian should be incorporated into Belgian Nobility with the titles prince (princesse) de Habsbourg-d'Este ?
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  #202  
Old 09-17-2019, 03:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theroyalfly View Post
I disagree. 'Prince/sse de Habsbourg-Lorraine' is a legal title in Belgian nobility. Actually both sons of Archduke Carl Ludwig of Austria and Princess Yolande of Ligne namely Rudolf and Carl Christian were incorporated into Belgian nobility.

When Archduke Rudolf married the Belgian aristocrat Baroness Hélčne de Villenfagne de Vogelsanck in 1976 and taking up residence in Belgium thereafter, it only took two years for King Baudouin to incorporate him and his children and male-line descendants werewith the hereditary title 'Prince/sse de Habsbourg-Lorraine' and the style of Serene Highness in the nobility of Belgium by royal letters patent on 29 May 1978.

In 1982, his younger brother Archduke Carl Christian married King Baudouin's niece Princess Marie Astrid of Luxembourg and a year after, him and his children and male-line descendants were also granted an entry to the Belgian nobility with a hereditary title 'Prince/sse de Habsbourg-Lorraine' and the style of Serene Highness.

Therefore, legally, both Rudolf and Carl Christian and their children and male-line descendants are HSH 'Prince/sse de Habsbourg-Lorraine' in Belgium.

Source: de Badts de Cugnac, Chantal. Coutant de Saisseval, Guy. Le Petit Gotha. Nouvelle Imprimerie Laballery, Paris 2002
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
I stand corrected, but isn't "de Habsbourg-Lorraine" a different branch? In a similar case, Anna-Astrid and Maximilian should be incorporated into Belgian Nobility with the titles prince (princesse) de Habsbourg-d'Este ?

By law, "Prince/sse" is the legal title and "de Habsbourg-Lorraine" is the legal surname of the branches descended from Prince and Princesse Carl Ludwig de Habsbourg-Lorraine (which indeed are from a different line of the family).

As shown in the rules of the national registration, the only titles of nobility that are registered with a designation are "King/Queen of the Belgians", "Prince/ss of Belgium" and "Duke/Duchess of Brabant". All other titles of nobility are legally in the form "Prince/ss", "Duke/Duchess" etc. without further designation, even if they are associated with a surname (which is a separate thing) such as "de Habsbourg-Lorraine".

https://www.ibz.rrn.fgov.be/fileadmi...e_noblesse.pdf

code titre : le titre de noblesse est codé par 2 chiffres conformément au tableau ci-dessous :
01
Prince
02
Princesse

03
Duc
04
Duchesse
05
Marquis
06
Marquise
07
Comte
08
Comtesse
09
Vicomte
10
Vicomtesse
11
Baron
12
Baronne
13
Chevalier
15
Ecuyer
17
Archiduc
18
Archiduchesse
19
Grand-Duc
20
Grande-Duchesse
21
Roi des Belges
22
Reine des Belges
23
Prince de Belgique
24
Princesse de Belgique
25
Duc de Brabant,
Prince de Belgique
26
Duchesse de Brabant,
Princesse de Belgique

The question is whether Habsburg-Este is the surname of the branch issuing from Prince Lorenz.

Looking once again at Princess Anna Astrid's birth registration (link), it lists her as
Son Altesse Impériale et Royale la Princesse Anna Astrid Marie Archiduchesse d'Autriche-Este (Habsbourg-Lorraine)

(Her Imperial and Royal Highness Princess Anna Astrid Marie Archduchess of Austria-Este (Habsburg-Lorraine))

As seen in the regulations above, "Princesse" and "Archiduchesse" are recognized as legal titles in the national registration, whereas "Archiduchesse d'Autriche-Este" is not. Under the legal rules, "d'Autriche-Este" is part of the surname: "d'Autriche-Este (Habsbourg-Lorraine)".
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  #203  
Old 09-17-2019, 05:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
By law, "Prince/sse" is the legal title and "de Habsbourg-Lorraine" is the legal surname of the branches descended from Prince and Princesse Carl Ludwig de Habsbourg-Lorraine (which indeed are from a different line of the family).

As shown in the rules of the national registration, the only titles of nobility that are registered with a designation are "King/Queen of the Belgians", "Prince/ss of Belgium" and "Duke/Duchess of Brabant". All other titles of nobility are legally in the form "Prince/ss", "Duke/Duchess" etc. without further designation, even if they are associated with a surname (which is a separate thing) such as "de Habsbourg-Lorraine".

https://www.ibz.rrn.fgov.be/fileadmi...e_noblesse.pdf

code titre : le titre de noblesse est codé par 2 chiffres conformément au tableau ci-dessous :
01
Prince
02
Princesse

03
Duc
04
Duchesse
05
Marquis
06
Marquise
07
Comte
08
Comtesse
09
Vicomte
10
Vicomtesse
11
Baron
12
Baronne
13
Chevalier
15
Ecuyer
17
Archiduc
18
Archiduchesse
19
Grand-Duc
20
Grande-Duchesse
21
Roi des Belges
22
Reine des Belges
23
Prince de Belgique
24
Princesse de Belgique
25
Duc de Brabant,
Prince de Belgique
26
Duchesse de Brabant,
Princesse de Belgique

The question is whether Habsburg-Este is the surname of the branch issuing from Prince Lorenz.

Looking once again at Princess Anna Astrid's birth registration (link), it lists her as
Son Altesse Impériale et Royale la Princesse Anna Astrid Marie Archiduchesse d'Autriche-Este (Habsbourg-Lorraine)

(Her Imperial and Royal Highness Princess Anna Astrid Marie Archduchess of Austria-Este (Habsburg-Lorraine))

As seen in the regulations above, "Princesse" and "Archiduchesse" are recognized as legal titles in the national registration, whereas "Archiduchesse d'Autriche-Este" is not. Under the legal rules, "d'Autriche-Este" is part of the surname: "d'Autriche-Este (Habsbourg-Lorraine)".
Thanks for the extensive answer. But where does the combination "d'Autriche-Este (Habsbourg-Lorraine)" come from? Should that not be "d'Autriche-Este (Habsbourg-Este)"?
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  #204  
Old 03-08-2020, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Thanks for the extensive answer. But where does the combination "d'Autriche-Este (Habsbourg-Lorraine)" come from? Should that not be "d'Autriche-Este (Habsbourg-Este)"?

The House of Habsburg-Lorraine was created when the duc de Lorraine married the archduchess Maria-Theresia of Austria from the House of Habsburg. As she was the heiress of her father, emperor Karl VI., she brought the name of her house with her into the marriage, forming the House of Habsburg-Lorraine (Habsburg-Lothringen) for their children. All living male members of the family are descendents of the both of them.



When Archduke Ferdinand Karl, fourth son of Maria Theresia of Habsburg and Franz-Stefan of Lorraine married the Este-heiress Maria Beatrice, their branch of the House Hansburg-Lorraine was named Österreich-Este (D'Autriche-Este). When that Habsburg-Lorraine line was to die out, the last Österreich-Este Archduke adopted his cousin Karl Ludwig of Habsburg-Lorraine, brother of emperor Franz Joseph I after Karl Ludwig agreed to take on the name of Österreich-Este, though he was a prince from the Imperial line of the house. Karl Ludwig's son Franz Ferdinand, heir of his uncle Franz Joseph I. ,married a mere countess, so his children could not inherit. In the end the Österreich-Este line went via emperor Karl's second son Rudolf to the current archduke Lorenz, husband of the Belgian princess Marie Astrid.


So while Habsburg-Lorraine ist the name of the family as a whole, Austria-Este was the name of a certain branch of the family. Through interadoption in the family, this branch continued to today's Archduke Lorenz, whose title is Archduke of Austria-Este, while he is from the family of Habsburg-Lorraine. Thus the Belgian description.



Btw - the first "Este" was the Marquess of Milan, Alberto Azzo II. who around 1000 build the castle of Este and was married to Kunigunde,the heiress of the German Welf-family. Their son Welf IV. inherited the German holdings of his parents and formed the Welf-line we see today with Prince Ernst August of Hanover (his wife is princess Caroline of Monaco) as the Head of the Welfs. Queen Victoria was another descendant and so is the queen and Princes Philip and Charles. From his marriage with Garsende of Maine he had a son Fulco I. d'Este, who inherited the Italian holdings. This line ended with Maria Beatrice and continued with her children from the Habsburg-marriage to today's Archduke Lorenz.



Hope this helps a bit. It is always difficult to understand when a reigning line changes the name form a geographical destination to a family name and on to another georgraphical description. Or vice versa.
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