Engagement of Princess Maria Laura and William Isvy; 27 Dec 2021

[Tatiana Maria]

Isn't it just an old custom for a couple to marry in the city/town where the parents of the bride are living? At least in the Benelux. Of course the last decades many couples have chosen to make different arrangements but it seems the most logical explanation to me.

That was/is my assumption as well, which is why I found it interesting that the couple's spokesperson presented a completely different explanation.

I think it is unlikely that he would convert, or he probably would have done so before this wedding. (It would also probably have been announced if he was intending to, given whom he is marrying).

As they will live in London Laura wanted to show Brussels to her future family in law which is very kind.

Replied to Prinsara and will reply to maria-olivia in the thread about Engagement of Princess Maria Laura and William Isvy; 27 Dec 2021.

Anyway, going back to Princess Maria Laura, she is not only a Princess of Belgium, but also an Archduchess of Austria-Este, hence a princess of the Austrian Imperial House (one of the bastions of Roman Catholic tradition in Europe). To me at least, the fact that she is marrying someone who is neither royalty nor nobility and, furthermore, is a Jew is a big deal (in a good sense in my opinion), which seems to prove that royals can indeed marry whoever they want nowadays.

Replied to Mbruno in the thread about Heirs to the Austrian Throne and House Rules .

 

[Tatiana Maria]

[...] as well as have the intent to raise any children Jewish — so basically entirely contradictory to what we know of this wedding.

I don't think the possibility of the couple raising their children Jewish has been eliminated. They haven't made any public comment on whether they expect to have children or if potential children would be raised in the Jewish, Catholic, both or neither religion (yes, the latter two alternatives would be frowned on by both Jewish and Catholic religious authorities, but nonetheless they are the preferred options for many interfaith couples).

I initially wondered if the choice of a Catholic wedding (where, as Biri stated, the wedding vows normally include a question about willingness to raise children "in Christ and his church", although the US Catholic church's website says that this question "may be omitted, if circumstances suggest this, for example, if the couple are advanced in years") might hint at the couple's leanings in regard to possible future children. However, if the Isvy family does not belong to a Reform(-equivalent) movement, then it could be explained by the probable difficulty in finding a rabbi willing to officiate an interfaith marriage which would be considered religiously invalid in traditional Judaism.

As they will live in London Laura wanted to show Brussels to her future family in law which is very kind.

I do expect them to remain in England for the foreseeable future, given that European royalty still mostly adhere to the old patriarchal rule of the wife subsuming herself into the husband's country and culture and not the other way around, but my impression from reading the reports was that their spokesperson was referring to their current life in London and not confirming that they will necessarily stay in London permanently. Please correct me if I'm mistaken.

 

[Prinsara]

I don't think the possibility of the couple raising their children Jewish has been eliminated. They haven't made any public comment on whether they expect to have children or if potential children would be raised in the Jewish, Catholic, both or neither religion (yes, the latter two alternatives would be frowned on by both Jewish and Catholic religious authorities, but nonetheless they are the preferred options for many interfaith couples).

I initially wondered if the choice of a Catholic wedding (where, as Biri stated, the wedding vows normally include a question about willingness to raise children "in Christ and his church", although the US Catholic church's website says that this question "may be omitted, if circumstances suggest this, for example, if the couple are advanced in years") might hint at the couple's leanings in regard to possible future children. However, if the Isvy family does not belong to a Reform(-equivalent) movement, then it could be explained by the probable difficulty in finding a rabbi willing to officiate an interfaith marriage which would be considered religiously invalid in traditional Judaism.

TM, you were the one who pointed out that in order for the RCC to recognize the marriage at all, Maria Laura has to make a fairly significant promise to raise any children Catholic, to the best of her ability. Logically, it seems to preclude them being raised as Jews. If she reneged on that, could it not lead to the marriage being declared invalid?

Culturally and emotionally, if one is planning to have Jewish children in an interfaith marriage, one does not get married in any kind of church by any kind of Christian authority, especially when there are other options. (They could have just had the civil wedding, not the cathedral and the archbishop.)

Aside from that, there is no Jewish authority that will recognize potential children as Jewish, given the circumstances the couple have chosen. The kids would have to convert on their own, out of their own wish, as adults (I don't believe Judaism does underage conversion).

For all these reasons, the possibility of them having Jewish children is quite remote.

 

[Moonmaiden23]

I tend to agree. I cannot imagine even the most liberal Catholic prelate agreeing to marry ML if the couple have already decided that their children will not be Christian.

Even less likely would be ML wanting a Catholic wedding if she has already decided against baptizing her children.

What would be the point?

 

[Prinsara]

Right. Summarily:
— the Catholic Church agreed to marry them conditionally on any children being Catholic (I'm still quite curious. If she somehow ends up not doing this, will they annul the marriage?)
— there is virtually no Jewish authority in the world that would recognize the marriage or even a Jewish upbringing for their children

So that would seem to leave ML and William with the one religious option they have chosen. However, there are many perfectly legal and joyous wedding options they did not choose that would have raised far more questions about any potential children's religious futures. It seems decided to me.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

There have been a plethora of Catholic royals who made the requisite promises to their church in order to have a Catholic wedding ceremony, or to have their non-Catholic wedding recognized by the Catholic Church, but in the end have raised their children as non-Catholics. Recent examples include Queen Máxima of the Netherlands and Princess Michael of Kent.

The Catholic Church, according to its US marriage website, does not view keeping the promise about doing all one can to raise children Catholic as one of its criteria to declare a marriage valid or invalid. Moreover, since 1983, the requirement is not an absolute promise to raise the children Catholic, but merely a promise to "do all in his or her power", and it applies only to the Catholic spouse.

Because of these challenges, the church requires the Catholic party to be faithful to his or her faith and to “make a sincere promise to do all in his or her power” to have their children baptized and raised in the Catholic faith. This provision of the 1983 Code of Canon Law is a change from the 1917 version, which required an absolute promise to have the children raised Catholic.

Likewise, the non-Catholic spouse is no longer required to promise to take an active role in raising the children in the Catholic faith, but instead “to be informed at an appropriate time of these promises which the Catholic party has to make, so that it is clear that the other party is truly aware of the promise and obligation of the Catholic party,” the code states. (See the 1983 [current] Code of Canon Law, canons 1124-1129 on “Mixed Marriages” for the full text.)

But suppose the non-Catholic party insists that the children will not be raised Catholic? The diocese can still grant permission for the marriage, as long as the Catholic party promises to do all he or she can to fulfill that promise, [...]

Concerning Catholic-Jewish marriages specifically, the Catholic Church (see article above) seems to accept that there is a strong likelihood of the children being raised Jewish:

Traditionally, Jews consider any child of a Jewish woman to be Jewish. The question of what faith in which to raise children must be an ongoing topic of dialogue between the couple and during marriage preparation. “Attempting to raise a child simultaneously as both Jewish and Catholic … can only lead to violation of the integrity of both religious traditions,” the [United States Conference of Catholic Bishops] report said.

The Reform community in the UK, according to its website, seems to recognize "the child of a Jewish father raised exclusively as a Jew" as Jewish:

In the area of status in Reform communities, the most important principle is that we seek to help those whose Jewish life and Jewish identity is strong to be included in our communities. As rabbis, we do so in the most appropriate ways possible, seeking to create the best possible journey into Jewish communal life that we can. In many cases, this means using existing models – as in the case of conversion for someone with no Jewish lineage. But we recognise that there will be cases where the mechanisms of 2000 years ago no longer suffice: such as the child of a Jewish father raised exclusively as a Jew (and sometimes without knowledge that there are any questions about status), or the child of two parents of the same sex where one is Jewish and one is not. In these cases, we need new mechanisms and processes to respond to the reality of modern Jews.

The more traditional or mainstream Jewish religious communities have a very different position, but - if I'm not mistaken - they do not dissuade Jewish men who have children with non-Jewish women from educating their children in the Jewish faith and traditions. The offspring simply will not be officially recognized as Jewish or qualified to fully participate in religious life until undergoing the process of conversion.


In any event, I'm not sure how much we can base our predictions on the policies of the religious authorities. Cultural and emotional considerations can weigh heavily on religious decisions as pointed out above, and most Christians and Jews do not observe all the standards of their religions.

However, there are many perfectly legal and joyous wedding options they did not choose that would have raised far more questions about any potential children's religious futures.

Do you mean holding only the legally required civil wedding, or is there another alternative?

 

[Prinsara]

That "strong likelihood" only exists if the woman is Jewish, given that automatically qualifies her children. As there is no Jewish woman involved in this situation, it's not applicable. Furthermore, there's a rather significant difference between raising your children in a different Christian denomination and not raising them as Christians.

If, if, Mr. Isvy happens to be Reform, it's still not considered a great start to your future children's Jewish life to have one of the most elaborate Christian weddings possible. Any rabbi would say so. (It is not a way of showing your "Jewish life and Jewish identity is strong".) That goes all the moreso for any other branch.

Furthermore, it's actually not a great feeling to be raised Jewish, consider yourself Jewish — and then be told as an adult you have to convert. Thousands and thousands of Israelis have to deal with it — and in their cases, their parents or grandparents or further back did not do it deliberately. It's not an easy thing, and not an option most people choose when another one is available. Occam's razor, this is not what will happen.

I did mean that Laura and William could have chosen civil marriage only. Perhaps gotten a religious blessing. Or they could have gotten married at that UK registry office and thrown a party.

The question of why they have chosen to marry as they plan to, we don't (yet) have the answer to. It may never be clear.

 

[crm2317]

Perhaps William’s Jewish faith is not of significant importance to him and he is therefore happy to marry in a Catholic Church. They may have arranged for some Jewish songs/music to honour his family.

 

[Marengo]

This thread is dedicated to the engagement of Princess Maria Laura and William Isvy.

Issues regarding religion of royal spouses can be discussed in this thread, here.

Several posts have been moved.

 

[SirGyamfi1]

What I can I say is that they are a very good-looking couple and I hope her wedding dress will look good and Mr.Isvy’s wedding attire will be perfect from head to toe.

 

[eya]

"Last weekend Princess Laura had her bachelorette party with her siblings, the Arco cousins and Medina sisters! ���� Maybe at her grandparents property in the South of France?"

https://twitter.com/x/status/1562004923922915330

 

[Skippy]

Two alternate versions from the engagement pictures that I had not seen before (although one is the full picture from the VRT.be news posting by Tatiana Maria in the wedding thread):
https://es-us.finanzas.yahoo.com/noticias/testigos-número-invitados-te-contamos-155623238.html

 

[cdm]

Perhaps Princess Maria Laura is theoretically not the first if Princess Charlotte did marry there, but, like Marengo, I can't find anything about that and surely she must have had a religious ceremony.

So there is still a chance that "Laura" is the first [emoji3]

I visited the Palace of Brussels and in the large antechambre was a plaque about the marriage of Charlotte. It said that room was used as a chapel for the wedding of Charlotte and Maximillian. The painting on the plaque showed clergy who did the ceremony.
https://www.alamy.com/nederlands-g...05-288-huwelijk-charlotte-image187785209.html

So their religious wedding was at the Palace.

 

[Marengo]

Thanks for solving the mystery, cdm. I suppose that for most courts it was usual to marry in the court chappel/ church. The big ceremonies as we know them now are for a large part of a later date, save -in some cases- for the direct heir. Leopold II was married in the SS. Michel & Gudele. If I am correct Albert I got married in Leo von Klenze's Allerheiligenhofkirche in Munich.

 

[Skippy]

Yes, thank you for clearing it up, cdm.

So September 10 is in that respect truly the first for a Belgian-born Princess.

And now it's waiting until the wedding date nears. Amazing, months of nothing and speculating have passed and now there is less than a month left.

 

[Mbruno]

I visited the Palace of Brussels and in the large antechambre was a plaque about the marriage of Charlotte. It said that room was used as a chapel for the wedding of Charlotte and Maximillian. The painting on the plaque showed clergy who did the ceremony.
https://www.alamy.com/nederlands-g...05-288-huwelijk-charlotte-image187785209.html

So their religious wedding was at the Palace.

Interesting. Maybe it was different in the 19th century, but I believe there are rules now in the Roman Catholic Church against having a wedding officiated by a Catholic priest outside a proper church. Can the religion experts here confirm or deny that?

EDIT: A Palace chapel would be OK, I guess, but that was not the case apparently.

 

[Marchesina]

Interesting. Maybe it was different in the 19th century, but I believe there are rules now in the Roman Catholic Church against having a wedding officiated by a Catholic priest outside a proper church. Can the religion experts here confirm or deny that?

EDIT: A Palace chapel would be OK, I guess, but that was not the case apparently.

As far as I remember you can't marry outside a religious building these days in a Catholic wedding, however it is possible to ask for an exeption to the bishop or a parish priest. Royals are more likely to obtain it obviously (I'm thinking about Charlene and Albert who had an open air wedding)

 

[An Ard Ri]

Wonderful that a date was announced and a September Wedding too!

 

[eya]

"Princess Astrid and Prince Lorenz arrive at the Brussels Cathedral to attend a press conference about their daughter’s wedding."

https://twitter.com/x/status/1565632274510610433

"Princess Astrid gets emotional at a press conference at Brussels cathedral about the wedding of Princess Laura, next Saturday. “My husband and I are very excited for our daughter. I might be moved. But it’s a huge event for us, as it was with Amedeo’s wedding.”"

https://twitter.com/x/status/1565637517432573952

https://twitter.com/x/status/1565639045610340352

 

[Blog Real]

Wedding of Princess Laura, September 10 in Brussels:

The bride will be escorted to the altar by her father Lorenz;

Anna Astrid and Maximilian, children of her brother Amedeo, will be the bridesmaids;

After leaving the cathedral, William will drive off with Laura

.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1565632592413691904

Civil wedding ceremony of Princess Laura and William, Sept 10:

In the morning at Brussels City Hall;

Private (so no time communicated) and short (30 min). Reserved for close family;

In French, Dutch, German and in English as part of William’s family speaks English.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1565632395705024513

Religious wedding ceremony of Princess Laura and William, Sept 10:

2:30PM at Brussels Cathedral (first guests will arrive from 1PM);

75-minute celebration with 500 guests;

Catholic ceremony with disparity of worship (William is jewish).

https://twitter.com/x/status/1565632463510114305

 

[Skippy]

The entire family is invited, including Delphine. I don't know whether I find that logical or surprising.

Anyway, I hope it will be a nice wedding (considering that my taste seems to be from days gone by).

 

[Somebody]

"Princess Astrid and Prince Lorenz arrive at the Brussels Cathedral to attend a press conference about their daughter’s wedding."

https://twitter.com/x/status/1565632274510610433

"Princess Astrid gets emotional at a press conference at Brussels cathedral about the wedding of Princess Laura, next Saturday. “My husband and I are very excited for our daughter. I might be moved. But it’s a huge event for us, as it was with Amedeo’s wedding.”"

https://twitter.com/x/status/1565637517432573952

https://twitter.com/x/status/1565639045610340352

I don't recall hearing her speak Dutch previously. It is clearly not her mother tongue but she is a proud mom.

Was there a press conference prior to Amedeo's wedding? Or is this also done 'because it is in Belgium' (which makes it more special - at least to Astrid).

 

[Tatiana Maria]

For details of the wedding from the earlier press conference with the mayor of Brussels and the couple's spokesman, see here.

Princess Maria Laura of Belgium and William Isvy: 10 Sept 2022


An article with further details from today's press conference with Princess Astrid and Prince Lorenz:

https://www.hln.be/royalty/ook-prin...k-prinses-maria-laura-bekendgemaakt~a4bd00fd/

Princess Astrid: "First and foremost, we'd like to thank everyone for the great interest in our daughter. We truly never expected it. My husband and I are incredibly happy for our daughter. It's an incredibly big event for us. For Laura it was important to marry in Brussels because she was born and raised here. She's crazy about her city." About William: "He's a son to us too."

The civil wedding will be officiated by the mayor, who will speak Dutch, French, German and English. The Brussels police honor guard welcoming the guests will be composed of cadets aged 15-18. Princess Delphine will be among the 30 or so guests.

The first guests at the religious wedding will arrive at 13:00, and immediate family at 14:15, followed by the bridal couple. Princess Maria Laura and William personally selected the Catholic and Jewish pieces which will be performed.

Information on the wedding dress, which Princess Maria Laura "carefully selected", will only be released on the wedding day.

William personally selected the car in which the couple will depart the cathedral in. The wedding celebration will continue with a private reception, dinner and evening party.

A comment from spokesman Hervé Verhoosel at the earlier press conference: "This is the opportunity for Laura to help her parents-in-law to further discover Brussels and her beautiful homeland. And it is also in the same city hall that her parents were married on 22 September 1984".


Nieuwsblad reporter Wim Dehandschutter also writes: "International media = “biggest royal wedding of the year”."

 

[An Ard Ri]

Will William receive a title or remain William Isvy?

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Will William receive a title or remain William Isvy?

See Titles of the Belgian Royal Family for my post on this issue, written when the couple announced their engagement, and for further discussion. To my knowledge, there have been no updates from the couple or the court.

I wonder what will happen concerning the titles of Princess Maria Laura, her future husband William Isvy, and any possible children of the marriage.


The princess:

Princess Maria Laura's official style will certainly continue to be HRH Princess Maria Laura, in the same way that her mother (since the succession changes of 1991) is officially styled as HRH Princess Astrid, Princess of Belgium.

https://www.monarchie.be/en/royal-family/princess-astrid

However, if Laura and William continue to live in Britain, I wonder if she will call herself Mrs. Isvy in private life, in accordance with British custom.


Her future husband:

William Isvy will not acquire any legal titles; Prince Amedeo's wife Lili Rosboch did not.

However, the Royal Palace currently styles Lili by courtesy as Princess Elisabetta Rosboch von Wolkenstein, which is often shortened to Princess Elisabetta.

https://www.lesoir.be/246315/articl...dit-le-prince-amedeo-et-sa-femme-annoncent-la
https://www.theroyalforums.com/foru...elgian-royal-family-38975-17.html#post2186635

Will the Palace likewise give William Isvy the courtesy style of Prince William Isvy or Prince William after marriage? Probably not, as there is little to no modern precedent in the nobility for a man to be addressed with his spouse's title even as a courtesy, but unlike the nobility, the royal family has introduced gender-equal succession for the descendants of King Albert II.

[...]

 

[Moonmaiden23]

Will there be an actual Catholic Nuptial Mass..."Catholic ceremony" could also imply a religious ceremony outside of Mass?

But I suppose since the ceremony is over an hour long it could mean that there will be a Mass.

 

[leidi]

The entire family is invited, including Delphine. I don't know whether I find that logical or surprising.

Anyway, I hope it will be a nice wedding (considering that my taste seems to be from days gone by).

I think both Philippe and Astrid are incredibly family-oriented people and once Delphine became "one of them", she was in the whole way, didn't she said herself that she was invited to the family bbqs and that her partner got along pretty well with Lorenz for example?

It's a mature, nice approach from the children of A&P towards their half-sister and her family, showing themselves to be far better people than their parents ever were.

 

[Skippy]

I think both Philippe and Astrid are incredibly family-oriented people and once Delphine became "one of them", she was in the whole way, didn't she said herself that she was invited to the family bbqs and that her partner got along pretty well with Lorenz for example?

It's a mature, nice approach from the children of A&P towards their half-sister and her family, showing themselves to be far better people than their parents ever were.

That she is invited to family BBQ's was shared by Chris Michel, who made the documentary about her.
That Jim gets along well with Lorenz was indeed shared by Delphine herself.

I still think it somehow surprises me because Delphine wasn't acknowledged until October 2020 so that must mean she has created a bond of some sort with Maria Laura at those gatherings, considering that Maria Laura and William live in London.
At least I don't expect that she is invited only because she is family.
Heck, the entire family lives scattered on the continent.

Anyway, up to next Saturday it is

 

[Marchesina]

Will there be an actual Catholic Nuptial Mass..."Catholic ceremony" could also imply a religious ceremony outside of Mass?

But I suppose since the ceremony is over an hour long it could mean that there will be a Mass.

You can also have the option of a ceremony outside Mass, and that is advisable (in many parishes it is by default) when there'a a disparity of worship. You get a ceremony with all the readings (first reading, psalm, optional second reading and the Gospel), the homily, the prayers but you don't have the Consecration and distribution of the Communion. As for the lenght, it may be due to a number of things: prayers (I have read earlier this summer they wanted to include jewish elements), musical choices....

 

[An Ard Ri]

Will there be an actual Catholic Nuptial Mass..."Catholic ceremony" could also imply a religious ceremony outside of Mass?

But I suppose since the ceremony is over an hour long it could mean that there will be a Mass.

Any Catholic Weddings I've attended have all been Wedding Masses and the fact its in a RC Cathedral I assume this will also be a wedding Mass.