Prince of Bourbon-Parma?

[irishthanhy]

I am very confused on this matter, so I'm hoping someone will be able to clear this up.

From my understanding HRH Grand Duke Jean gave up the title of Prince of Bourbon-Parma for himself and his descendants. I have seen the title applied to HRH Hereditary Grand Duke Guillaume (only him, however) occasionally with the note 'since 2001' and I keep wondering why.

Thanks in advance to any one who can answer.

 

[Next Star]

The press is not known for doing thorough research espically when it comes to royalty.That is why they address the Herditary Grand Duke as Prince of Bourbon-Parma.If they dug deeper into his family history they would have known his family no longer
holds the title prince/princess of Bourbon-Parma.

 

[USCtrojan]

The press is not known for doing thorough research espically when it comes to royalty.That is why they address the Herditary Grand Duke as Prince of Bourbon-Parma.If they dug deeper into his family history they would have known his family no longer
holds the title prince/princess of Bourbon-Parma.

I was going to say the exact same thing until I read your post Next Star. Dropped that along time ago.

 

[irishthanhy]

That's what I figured at first. The 'since 2001' threw me off.

Thanks.

 

[Princess21]

I was reading information on http://www.nettyroyal.nl/luxembourg1.html website and it said that HRH Grand Duke Jean that on July 28th 1987 he abandoned the titled Prince of Bourbon of Parme.

 

[Harald]

Well, Grand Duke Henri has granted Guillaume the Title of Prince of Bourbon-Parma when he created Guillaume Hereditary Grand Duke on December 18, 2000.

http://www.gouvernement.lu/salle_presse/actualite/2000/12/18guillaume/index.html

 

[MAfan]

In 1981 Duke Carlo Ugo of Parma considered thew wedding of Henri and Maria Teresa morganatic, so Guillaume has no rights to the throne of Parma, but maybe he and his family conserved the title...also some Princes of Prussia lost theyr right to the throne but continue to hold the title (the firstborn and the secondborn of prince Louis Ferdinand and theyr descendants)

 

[Count]

In 1981 Duke Carlo Ugo of Parma considered thew wedding of Henri and Maria Teresa morganatic, so Guillaume has no rights to the throne of Parma, but maybe he and his family conserved the title...also some Princes of Prussia lost theyr right to the throne but continue to hold the title (the firstborn and the secondborn of prince Louis Ferdinand and theyr descendants)

Correct, for the Parma's family rules the wedding has been morganatic.
It is amusing to read this thread if we think that we are talking about Guillaume and the inexistent "throne" of Parma, when he will be, soon or later, Grandduke of Luxembourg!

 

[Harald]

In 1981 Duke Carlo Ugo of Parma considered thew wedding of Henri and Maria Teresa morganatic, so Guillaume has no rights to the throne of Parma, but maybe he and his family conserved the title...also some Princes of Prussia lost theyr right to the throne but continue to hold the title (the firstborn and the secondborn of prince Louis Ferdinand and theyr descendants)

You are indeed correct concerning the rights to the non-existant throne of Parma. Henri is as sovereign head of state, however, free to bestow any title he pleases upon Guillaume. He probably granted Guillaume the title of Prince of Bourbon-Parma for historic reasons.

In Germany titles are now part of a person's name and therefore cannot be taken away anymore by the head of a (royal or noble) house.

 

[Harald]

Correct, for the Parma's family rules the wedding has been morganatic.
It is amusing to read this thread if we think that we are talking about Guillaume and the inexistent "throne" of Parma, when he will be, soon or later, Grandduke of Luxembourg!

Well, discussions about succession rights to non-existant thrones are a source of never-ending amusement, aren't they?

 

[firelight]

I was reading information on http://www.nettyroyal.nl/luxembourg1.html website and it said that HRH Grand Duke Jean that on July 28th 1987 he abandoned the titled Prince of Bourbon of Parme.

Why did he do that? What was the benefit in giving up the title? Did he give up the rights to the throne of Parma as well or was it only the title that he stopped using?

I'm a little confused now! So Guillaume does indeed hold the title of Prince of Bourbon-Parma because his father bestowed it on him. But he has no right to the 'throne of Parma' because Henri and MT's marriage was considered morganatic. Have I got that straight?

 

[magnik]

The official titles of the sovereigns of Luxembourg are (in French): Grand Duc de Luxembourg, Duc de Nassau, Comte du Rhine, Comte de Sayn, Königstein, Katzenelnbogen et Diez, Vicomte d'Hammerstein, Seigneur de Mahlberg, Wiesbaden, Idstein, Merenberg, Limbourg et d'Eppstein with the style Altesse Royale (Royal Highness).

The official title of the heir to the throne is: Prince Héréditaire de Luxembourg with the style Altesse Royale. The heir to the throne is usually granted the titles Grand Duc Héréditaire de Luxembourg, Prince Héréditaire de Nassau after he has reached the age of 18.
Grand Duke Adolphe's descendants in male lineage bore the titles Prince/Princesse de Luxembourg, Prince/Princesse de Nassau with the style Altesse Grand-Ducale (Grand-Ducal Highness).
Grand Duchess Charlotte's descendants in male lineage bore the titles Prince/Princesse de Luxembourg, Prince/Princesse de Bourbon de Parme with the style Altesse Royale.
By Grand-Ducal Decree of July 28th, 1986 Grand Duke Jean renounced the title Prince/Princesse de Bourbon de Parme and adopted the family name Nassau for himself and his family. (As MAfan wrote by the reason was unequal marriage of Henri to MT as CarlosHugo said.)

By Grand-Ducal Decree of September 21st, 1995 is established that the children of the sovereign and the children of the heir to the throne will bear the title Prince/Princesse de Luxembourg with the style Altesse Royale. The other members of the family will bear the title Prince/Princesse de Nassau with the style Altesse Royale. A prince who contracts a marriage without consent will bear the title Comte de Nassau, his wife will bear the title Comtesse de Nassau and their children will bear the title Comte/Comtesse de Nassau. A princess who contracts a marriage without consent will bear the title Comtesse de Nassau.
By Grand-Ducal Decree of November 27th, 2004 the children of Prince Jean and the wife and children of Prince Robert have been granted the personal title Prince/Princesse de Nassau with the style Altesse Royale.
By Grand-Ducal Decree of February 3rd, 2006 the surname of the Grand-Ducal family has been altered from "Nassau" into "de Nassau".
Henri van Oene's Royal Genealogies Page

About
HRH Prince Guillaume Jean Joseph Marie of Luxembourg, Prince of Bourbon-Parma

(Since July 28th, 1986 HRH Prince Guillaume Jean Joseph Marie of Luxembourg
(Since October 7th, 2000 HRH Hereditary Prince Guillaume Jean Joseph Marie of Luxembourg, Hereditary Prince of Nassau
(Since December 18th, 2000 HRH Hereditary Grand Duke Guillaume Jean Joseph Marie Nassau of Luxembourg, Hereditary Prince of Nassau, Prince of Bourbon-Parma
* Maternité Grande Duchesse Charlotte, Luxembourg, November 11th, 1981
Hereditary Prince of Luxembourg, October 7th, 2000. Created Hereditary Grand Duke of Luxembourg, Hereditary Prince of Nassau, Prince of Bourbon-Parma, December 18th, 2000 http://www.geocities.com/dagtho/luxdecree20001218.html

 

[firelight]

Magnik, you're a gem! Thank you for your detailed info.

 

[monica17]

Well, I don't get why the Princes/Princesses of Luxembourg borne out of Grand Duke Henri's 's marriage (and others who married morganatically) are still styled at HRH. Luxemburg is a Grand Duchy, the style should be GDH.

However, since GD Jean was a Prince of Bourbon-Parma in the male line, he and his descendants were entitled to the style HRH if they married an "equal"... for although it ruled a duchy only, the House of Bourbon-Parma was a cadet line of Spanish royals (as well as descended from the short-lived Kings of Etruria). The marriage of Grand Duke Henri was considered morganatic by the late Duke Carlos Hugo, ex head of the house, and his descendants no longer Prince/Princess of Bourbon-Parma, why are they still using the style HRH?

I've read that the Grand Duchy of Hesse also used the style HRH for the reigning grand duke and heir apparent but they aren't descended from kings either....

Don't get me wrong, I like the GDF of Luxembourg very much - and they are descended from my favourite royal couple, Archduchess Maria Amalia of Austria and Duke Ferdinand of Parma - but I'm just confused as to why they are styled HRH.... Duke Adolphe of not of royal lineage (not descended from kings but rather Dukes of Nassau) either but styled as HRH once he became Grand Duke.

 

[Kotroman]

Actually, Adolf, William IV, Marie-Adelaide and Charlotte are all descended in male line from a king - King Adolf of Germany (1255 - 1298). That has nothing to do with their entitlement to the style of Royal Highness, but it does make it incorrect to state that they are not descended from any king in male line

Anyway, Grand Duke Jean entirely reversed his 1986 decision in 1995, thus resuming the title of Prince of Bourbon-Parma (Prince de Bourbon de Parme). Grand Duke Henri thus did not really grant the title to his eldest son in 2000; his sons had already held it.

In fact, Grand Duchess Charlotte created the title of Prince of Bourbon-Parma for her husband as a Luxembourgian noble title. You can compare this creation with Queen Beatrix's creation of the title of Prince of Bourbon-Parma in Dutch nobility.

To sum it up: the Grand Duke of Luxembourg and his family are indeed princes(ses) of Bourbon-Parma

 

[Blog Real]

Does Prince Charles have the title of Prince of Bourbon-Parma?

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Does Prince Charles have the title of Prince of Bourbon-Parma?

If there is consistency in the titulature, Charles will be Prince de Bourbon-Parme as Heir and as Grand-Duke. For now he is Prince de Luxembourg, Prince de Nassau.

 

[Blog Real]

If there is consistency in the titulature, Charles will be Prince de Bourbon-Parme as Heir and as Grand-Duke. For now he is Prince de Luxembourg, Prince de Nassau.

Yes, but the brothers and sisters of the Grand Duke and Prince Guillaume are also Princes of Bourbon-Parma.
That's why I think Prince Charles has that title, too.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Yes, but the brothers and sisters of the Grand Duke and Prince Guillaume are also Princes of Bourbon-Parma.
That's why I think Prince Charles has that title, too.

The siblings of the Grand-Duke were princes and princesses of Bourbon-Parma under the old generic arrangement for all agnatic patrilineal descendants of Prince Félix. The Heir is given specific titles by grand-ducal decree:

On Jan 4, 1939 (the day before his 18th birthday) Prince Jean received the title of Hereditary Grand-Duke of Luxemburg, Hereditary Prince of Nassau, Prince of Bourbon-Parma.

On April 14, 1973 (two days before his 18th birthday) Prince Henri received the title of Hereditary Grand-Duke of Luxemburg, Hereditary Prince of Nassau, Prince of Bourbon-Parma.

Prince Guillaume (b. Nov 11, 1981) received the title of Hereditary Grand-Duke of Luxemburg, Hereditary Prince of Nassau, Prince of Bourbon-Parma on Dec 18, 2000.

 

[Blog Real]

Felix, Louis and Sébastien are also Princes of bourbon of Parme and Princess Alexandra is also Princess of Bourbon of Parme.
That is why I have this doubt about Prince Charles, because he is a Prince of Luxembourg, unlike the cousins who are Princes of Nassau.

 

[theroyalfly]

Felix, Louis and Sébastien are also Princes of bourbon of Parme and Princess Alexandra is also Princess of Bourbon of Parme.
That is why I have this doubt about Prince Charles, because he is a Prince of Luxembourg, unlike the cousins who are Princes of Nassau.

I'm also a bit curious but I think Prince of Bourbon-Parma is only for the descendants of the Grand Duke and the heir of the Grand Duchy.

Correct me if I'm wrong because Prince Jean and Prince Guillame's children are just Prince/Princess of Nassau.

 

[Blog Real]

I'm also a bit curious but I think Prince of Bourbon-Parma is only for the descendants of the Grand Duke and the heir of the Grand Duchy.

Correct me if I'm wrong because Prince Jean and Prince Guillame's children are just Prince/Princess of Nassau.

Yes only the sons of the Grand Duke and grand duke heir have the title of prince of Bourbon-Parma. That's why I asked if Prince Charles has that title.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Yes only the sons of the Grand Duke and grand duke heir have the title of prince of Bourbon-Parma. That's why I asked if Prince Charles has that title.

In 1995 Grand-Duke Jean issued a Decree in which the name of the House and the surname of the grand-ducal family was established: Nassau.

The same Decree established that the members of the grand-ducal family are Prince (Princesse) de Luxembourg and Prince (Princesse) de Nassau with the prefix HRH.

No longer the title Prince (Princesse) de Bourbon-Parma. With this the HRH was no longer derived from the House of Bourbon-Parma but from the House of Luxembourg itself.

In 2006 Grand-Duke Henri modified the Decree of 1995: the surname is not Nassau but de Nassau.

So far so good. After this the title Prince de Bourbon-Parma popped up again for children of a Grand-Duke and children of a Hereditary Grand-Duke. But in daily practice only the Grand-Duke and the Hereditary Grand-Duke are connected with this title.

Note that Félix de Bourbon, Prince de Parme was incorporated into the Nobility of Luxembourg with the title Prince de Bourbon de Parme. The same did happen to the four children of Carlos Hugo de Bourbon, Duke of Parma: they were incorporated into the Netherlands Nobility, also with the title Prince (Princesse) de Bourbon de Parme.

So there are factually three Bourbon-Parmas:

1
The Royal House of Bourbon-Parma.

2
The noble family De Bourbon de Parme with the title of prince (princesse) and the prefix Altesse Royale (Luxembourg) = the descendants in the patrilineal lineage of Félix de Bourbon, Prince de Parme.

R
The noble family De Bourbon de Parme with the title prins (prinses) and the prefix Koninklijke Hoogheid (the Netherlands) = the descendants in the patrilineal lineage of Carlos Hugo de Bourbon, Duke of Parma.

All three with an own jurisdiction. The Duke of Parma has no say over the noble namesakes in Luxembourg and the Netherlands since they derive their nobility from a Letters of Patent issued by the Luxembourgian resp. Dutch Crown and fall under the rules of these systems of Nobility. We have seen this with his fruitless objection against the title prins de Bourbon de Parme for his extramarital son. As Head of the Royal House of Bourbon-Parma he could object, but the Dutch justice stated that his son, despite not being born in a marriage, has the right to have his father's Dutch noble title, surname and prefix as the rules in the Nobility of the Netherlands allow this.